ChuSauLei.Com Martial Arts - An Interview with Dr. Michael Guen, Ba Gua Quan Master

An Interview with Dr. Michael Guen, Ba Gua Quan Master

Interview conducted by Robert Chu, L.Ac., QME, PhD

Michael Guen holds a Ph.D. in psychology, is a physician of Oriental medicine and a practitioner of various natural therapies. He is a 5th generation disciple of the Yin Fu ba gua quan lineage under Grandmaster Gong Baozai, and a thirty year student of Yang family tai chi chuan. An author, he resides in Santa Rosa, California, where he practices clinical medicine, teaches life practice and martial arts.

Can you give us a little background on your Chinese Martial arts training and experience? How long have you practiced? What have you studied?

I have been studying martial arts for thirty years. In 1973 began practicing Wu style tai chi chuan in Boston Chinatown. A year and a half later I began studying Yang style tai chi with Ginsoon Chu, who is Yang Shouzhong's second disciple. In 1977 I lived in Taiwan for two years, where I sought out instruction from many teachers. I was studying xing yi quan from the wife of Chang Chunfeng and from a disciple of Chen Panling, when I met Gong Baozai. After that initial trip to Taiwan, I went back to Asia nearly every year until 2000, when Gong Baozai and his wife passed away.

For ten years after I met Gong Baozai, I continued to study other styles in Hong Kong and Mainland China, mostly Yang family connections. During that time I met and received instruction from Yang Shouzhong as well as briefly from Chen Longxiang, the lineage descendant of Yang Chengfu's disciple in Sichuan, Li Yaxian. My other brief exposure has been to Five animal Shaolin, Wing chun, Aikido, Shuai jiao, and more recently Brazilian jiujitsu.

The martial arts I have sampled and fought against has been quite wide. But the steady reference point throughout has been the two orthodox internal teachers I met-Gong Baozai of Yin Fu ba gua quan and Yang Shouzhong of Yang family tai chi chuan. Each impressed on me completely different aspects of mastery. Grandmaster Yang possessed the marvelous dong jing , understanding force, and tai chi power; Gong Baozai brought me to a complete comprehension of the inner and outer mechanism of internal arts, which included a mysterious highest attainment called hou qi ba gua "latter steps of ba gua" otherwise known as, sheng ren zhi lu , "way of the saint."

I understand you traveled throughout Asia, would you tell us about some of your experiences?

What I didn't mention was another major influence that radically affected my orientation towards martial arts; from age twenty-one to thirty-five I had frequent encounters with xiu dao de ren , representatives of several orthodox Daoist lineages in Taiwan and the Mainland, where these masters invited me to ru men and join their sects. Some even invited me to chu jia (leave home) and renounce the world. In addition to teaching me meditation, philosophy, medicine and spirituality, I learned from them a certain perspective on martial arts-that it was a natural preparation to letting go of all worldly desires to transcend the wheel of karma.

The spiritual influence bestowed by these Daoist teachers and teachings has had a huge impact on the course of my life, as for years I struggled with the decision to stay in the world or leave the world. Imagine me, a suburban Asian American kid contemplating the renunciate path, and the confusion it brought? Therefore, from early in my training, I had been introduced to an aim for martial arts that went beyond technical mastery alone. Even though I love fighting, I never since meeting these people viewed fighting as the end all accomplishment of martial arts.

What was the great Yang Sau Zhong like?

As a student of Yang Shouzhong's second disciple from the age of nineteen to thirty, I had the opportunity to visit Yang Shouzhong three times. For accuracy sake I need to qualify my relationship with the great grandmaster of tai chi chuan-it was not as a formal student. The first was upon introduction of Master Chu; the second was on a group trip with Master Chu; and a third was a private trip to visit Grandmaster Yang.

In the brief yet intense interactions I had with Yang shouzhong, he was extremely generous to me. From direct physical contact and detailed corrections and instructions, he gave me an entirely different view of tai chi than found in the mainstream. Everything was different: its temperament, the nature of the extraordinary power, and a standard for practice of the forms that I have not seen rivaled by any practitioner of tai chi.

The standard of authenticity I hold for the internal arts thus comes from having for years compared and weighed the methods, styles, character and dispositions of these two pure line masters. I saw that the original schools of tai chi chuan and ba gua quan known today were developed and preserved for generations as independent inquiries. All Gong Baozai and Yang Shouzhong ever did was one style their entire lifetime; which means that if it is actually true that they were both fourth generation lineage holders of the original traditions, each system held a reality that was complete and self-sustaining unto itself. This is a big statement. For one thing, it implies the systems in being self-sufficient, were originally resistant to blending.

Throughout my twenties I fought Gong Baozai's recommendation to develop my character and scholarship; at the same time, I was so taken by the internal power of Yang's tai chi, that for those years I invested most of my energies into training in tai chi chuan. However, the principles Gong Baozai imparted never left me.

Regarding Ba Gua, I know that you have studied different lineages of the art. Why did you feel the need to study various versions rather than sticking to one?

I actually had only brief exposures to other ba gua styles, most before I met Gong Baozai. Like many of my tai chi colleagues in the 70's, I was fascinated with ba gua and took various workshops offered by different teachers. Until I met Gong Baozai, none of the styles I studied put me in conflict with other internal styles. I could keep practicing ba gua zhang, tai chi chuan, qi gong, xing yi quan, all with no disagreement. However, the open body style Gong Baozai taught was so different from what I call the "turtle back" posture. Opening my chest, pulling in my abdomen and sticking out my buttocks seemed contradictory to what I had learned was "internal," and it at first made me feel weak. This is the reason I didn't practice his style seriously for many years; I didn't possess the emotional strength to hold my body open that way. Another reason was that because it was practiced so radically different from other internal styles, dedicating myself solely to ba gua quan would have alienated me from the greater martial arts community.

Even as I delved into other styles, it always clung in the back of my mind that there was something special about the method Gong Baozai taught; the entire feeling and flavor was different. Later I discovered that my training in other systems built up my body in a way that made it "armor plated." I resisted Gong Baozai's entire teaching approach of family style and the physical method because it threatened me. It was too open and intimate, making me feel vulnerable with my feelings; all of which I was not yet ready to face until I matured emotionally in my thirties.

Confucius said, "At thirty one stands up." Gong Baozai interpreted this as meaning that one first has a sense for living for the sake of oneself. Before one has matured sufficiently in this respect, no matter how hard he or she may try, they are unable to embrace living beyond one's own self-interests. In my late twenties I fell quite ill from incorrect practice: fighting too much, taking too many blows, and indiscriminately abusing people. There was a passive anger I wasn't in touch with that was inverting inward and destroying me. Gong Baozai was the only martial arts teacher whose system, in offering an equal balance of warriorship, scholarship and medicine, could save me from my violence.

What is unique about the training that you received under Gong Baozai? How is the application different from Tai Chi? How do you choose what system you use for application?

The tai chi chuan I learned was very authentic. As a martial art it is supreme. Gong Baozai said that his teacher Gong Baotian acknowledged the superiority of tai chi chuan. Yet he also commented that present day tai chi has lost the thread of the balancing element in medicine. When I refer to medicine here, I am speaking of a sophistication of knowledge that goes way beyond qi cultivation, acupuncture and herbs. These, Gong Baozai said, are surface manifestations of a deeper root in medicine, whereby one understands the nature of change. The sole emphasis of the tai chi training I received was on developing rooting and power. For quite a few years I practiced eight to twelve forms a day, then in the evenings practiced pushing hands, sparring, and the other two-person training. I learned that even though one might have lousy technique and form, with all the qi and strength building in tai chi it would be hard for another to hurt your body with their bare hands.

Exposure to Gong Baozai however, changed my perspective on all of this. Tai chi and ba gua turned out to be like apples and oranges. Because of differences in purpose and approach to practice, they cannot be blended. Not wanting to lose either, I tried for years to find the common link, all to no avail until just recently. I describe this experience in detail in my book Way of the Saint: Missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts.

The system Gong Baozai taught is impossible to study with the same spirit as other martial arts. Everything about it causes one to have to let go of old preconceptions of what martial arts is, especially the value of strength. This is a very extensive question you ask, but I can answer it at the root, which is how the philosophy is used. I am aware there are many versions and interpretations of tai chi, some coming from temples with extensive theoretical frameworks and ties to Chinese medicine, qi gong, and I Ching. But my criteria for authenticity are the families such as Yang, and Chen from where the Yang came. The people that popularized tai chi in the public arena were martial artists, not monks. I do not know the temple styles of tai chi. In the terms of the Yang family, I know that the main application of yin and yang is as directly applied in exercise and practical application. It is principally a martial art, only secondarily a system of therapy or medicine. With training one develops dong jing , interpreting force, fan tan jing , repelling power, someone touches you and in an instant they lose their balance or are bounded away. This is what I learned from the Yang Shouzhong style. No excessively round circles, no winding up, no whipping; the real practical thing that is based on merging body and mind. That is the marvel of the in-the-door Yang family training I caught a glimpse of. You can't get near them; the strength in the hands and body are so great that they could crush you with little effort at all.

Despite this appeal, something was wrong with my tai chi training. I feel the system either lost or never had the medicine. Maybe by the time the families got them the medicine and mysticism was lost already. If Zhang Sanfeng did create tai chi in the Song dynasty and was a monk, it might have been a more elaborate and extensive in terms of medicine and mysticism. What the families I feel mainly got were its fighting aspect and a little of the self-cultivation, which though extraordinary, did not likely include the spiritual aspect.

By comparison, a version of an original temple martial art system was, I feel, retained in the transmission received by Gong Baozai. He claims to have learned it from Gong Baotian, who got it directly from Yin Fu. The depth of this orientation can be summed up by what Gong Baozai once said to me when I asked him how ba gua can be applied to life and self-defense. He said "ba gua cannot be applied to life, ba gua IS life!" That says it right there. The goal is not to find something-that will only kill it-but to seek the principles that already exist within you. This might seem Daoist but it is not. It is just natural and common sense, and the way to allow the body's full potentials to come forth. The more you pursue physical strength, the less you truly have it internally; the more you want to beat someone the less effective you will be in other aspects of your life. You might win a bout, but the effort you put into getting those skills may leave you short-sighted and handicapped in the bigger scheme of your life. Just look at the private lives of many successful pugilists as an example of chi kui , losing out in larger respects. The lives of many students of internal martial arts I have taught, even though not as extreme, are not much different in the lack of balance and true fulfillment.

At this point, my tai chi and ba gua can be practiced together, but only because I've given myself over to the principles of ba gua. The open body posture of ba gua can encompass tai chi; but the closed turtle back posture of tai chi, for all its effectiveness in fighting, is unable on the physical, emotional and mental levels, to embrace the expansive consciousness of ba gua. I agree with Gong Baozai that tai chi must have once had the medicine-emphasis on separating out the organs with movement-maybe even to a greater depth of profundity than ba gua quan, but this knowledge may have since been lost.

What is the resultant sum of physical martial arts training?

I think you are talking about power. I used to have enormous rebound power-I would give demonstrations for my club holding five men on my shoulder and pushing them back into a wall. But it was external and eventually made me sick. Maybe it was because I had not learned the complete tai chi method from the Yang's. But I'm not sure if I want to now, because of the bondage to power; it bred a restlessness and spirit that masked by politeness and propriety was always challenging and testing. One's world becomes very small-who is more powerful, who can push who, who is superior based on this criteria alone? This is the underlying dialogue I see masters promoting to their student's today. It has to be; power is the martial artist's basic claim to self-worth in this modern era. Gong Baozai did not call that martial arts, but "pugilism." True martial arts, he claimed, embodies medicine, mysticism and character, which as a consequence curbs.the tendency toward imbalance in the strength realm. His saying "employ principle above strength, rather than strength above principle" sums it up.

There is never any guarantee that practicing a superior system will lead to great accomplishment, but the general ambition of ba gua quan is higher than most martial arts. Engaging in self-inquiry under the guidance of Gong Baozai I came to understand many things about Chinese culture and spirit, about human nature and the natural course of life. It is the development of a strong intelligence that makes the body strong and capable, of a caliber above the norm. This is what makes one superior as a fighter; not the endless conditioning of body parts and killer techniques. Superiority as a human therefore has nothing to do with fighting or training. Those who need to prove their self-worth by fighting are in many respects like adolescents.

In contrast, Gong Baozai offered an "art," a path to freedom rather than a technical craft. He hardly met others who were willing to take up this kind of bid-that is why he had so few students. Few had the faith or patience to try to understand where he was coming from. Gong Baozai's idea of formlessness was essentially to be able to walk into any culture and be so well rounded, well read, and capable and resourceful intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, that you not only feel comfortable, but have no points to defend. One must possess mature self-understanding before form can be relinquished; one needs the courage to let go of one's own culture and open oneself up to others. Aside from the supreme fighting abilities of Gong Baotian and Yin Fu, they needed to be worldly in their perspective to hold such esteemed positions in the Imperial Palace.

This expanded awareness is reflected in ba gua quan's style of fighting as well. Gong Baozai taught one to follow the opponent and use softness to overcome hardness just as tai chi; but the approach taken to develop skills is slightly different. In ba gua training there is more incremental breakdown of the joints from head to toe, and more focus on mastering the footwork. As it came from Lohan it has preserved the full array of techniques one would find in Shaolin, including pressure points, sweeps, jump kicks, throws, locks, flying takedowns, etc. Strong rooting is developed, and so is the ability to be generous and forgiving in word and action. All tolled, this expanded versatility of repertoire offers a broad range of social and physical options when dealing with an attack.

Tell us a little about the training/principles/concepts of the Gong Baozai Ba Gua system.

Some main concepts are chiefly: principle above strength (form); three essential standards: the principles of structure, medicine and technique; the six correspondences; inner and outer unification; self-propagating growth, one-effort, following the natural course. The method for developing strength is very profound, as one learns movement and strength in relation to oneself rather than first learning strength by applying it to an outside body. Integration of the mind with one's own body, character and conduct with one's teacher, tradition and other relationships in one's life, are all vital to gaining unwavering mind-based strength. Most essentially, the movements and postures need to be in accordance with physiology. The inner organs and outer body regions have close functional correspondence with each other. The invisible barrier separating movement of the limbs with the internal organs must be transgressed.

I've heard He Jinghan is the inheritor of this system? What is his relationship to you?

He Jinghan is my lineage brother, and one of the inheritors of this system. I began training with Gong Baozai several years before him. For ten years we intensively researched this ba gua quan system together. Much of the teaching that came out of Gong Baozai was stimulated by us working together. Regarding a sole inheritor, Gong Baozai never declared one person as his sole cloak and bowl descendant. He may have wished it to be that way, but by the end of his life it was obvious that our circumstance made it impossible. None of his disciples had the opportunity from a young age to go deep. He Jinghan and I came into relationship with Gong Baozai having studied other styles; there was thus a bias he had to trouble shoot in order to align us with the pure ba gua perspective. When you look at the reality of our modern situation and lifestyle, in the face of such challenging aspects of this esoteric system that are so elusive and difficult to grasp, it is ridiculous to make such a claim. We are just struggling to preserve the pieces that we learned. Gong Baozai did manage to pass onto us practically the complete framework of the root ba gua quan system; but even he did not learn the qing gong (lightness skills) - the flying art, that his teacher had. In terms of embodying the principles fully in knowledge, skill and character-that is the only thing, in my opinion, that would entitle one to claim inheritorship. None of us has fully achieved to this level.

Gong Baotian told Gong Baozai that ba gua quan can never learned to the end. I am not talking about external forms, but the grasp of the three essential standards-principles of physiology, medicine and technique-to be able to fight in perfect adherence to these principles, living the mystery of change within the eight trigrams, five elements, and yin yang, in every moment of one's relationships.

Regarding our strengths, I would say that He Jinghan, Tu Kun-yii (another disciple of Gong Baozai in New Jersey), and I have each excelled in different respects. Gong Baozai named a total of twelve disciples. To get a well-rounded grasp of Gong Baozai's teaching it would be worthwhile to get to know more than one of us.

What do you think martial artists can gain through the study of this martial art? What do you think this means for western martial artists and their students?

Martial arts can stand to learn a true state of self-reliance and self-sufficiency, to a point that one's learning becomes so full that the concern for qi cultivation is transcended. Within the ba gua quan methodology is a distillation of the most essential elements of martial arts as a complete system of life practice. The ultimate attainment is a direct experience of inner outer unity in handling all of life's affairs. Once you feel the impulse arising from inside the organs, and how it is effortlessly connected with body mechanics through the five elements and eight palms, there is no going back to externalized strength. Thus in general this discipline can help to elevate the standard of martial arts with the highest potentials human beings are capable of. That foremost includes the natural graduation to service for community, the basis of a spiritual life, as an expression of superior scholar-warriorship attainment.

The benefits to western martial artists and their students can be great. It may help give martial arts a chance to be restored to the respectable position in society that it once was in Asia. It is because of a narrowing of scope that it is presently relegated to a special interest or hobby today. In fact, martial arts represents among the highest level of integration possible by humans.

Would you go so far as to make a comparison of the effectiveness of your Ba Gua Quan and what is commonly known as Ba Gua Zhang?

We need to define "effectiveness." In fighting, I feel individual talent is a bigger factor than any system, regardless of the system one practices. For health, there are also many individual factors such as hereditary and social background that play significant roles. Regarding the difference between ba gua quan and what is commonly known as ba gua zhang, I feel ba gua quan, with the attention paid to separating out the body parts, enables one to gain more self-awareness, and ultimately to be able to change and deal with the stresses of life very effectively.

Do you think different 'schools' (styles of the same method) are important?

I think every school has something valuable to offer; assuming that each most likely embodies at least some memory of the essential system. Studying them can bring us more clarity about what the original possibly looked like.

The challenge for all practitioners from lineage holder to student, in this respect, is to transcend the form of one's practice. I do not know what Yin Fu learned from Dong Haichuan. There is no proof whether it was Dong Haichuan or Yin Fu who brought in the Lohan aspect to ba gua. Gong Baozai himself told me that ba gua quan is only a li, principle. So I don't really know what the original system was. What we do know for certain, however, is that the system Gong Baozai received is so extraordinary and all encompassing of the essence of philosophy, medicine, mysticism, martial arts from ancient Chinese civilization, that it seems impossible one person could have created it. It's simply too vast in scope-for instance, the 64 posture pao chui "cannon fist" form, and the reason it is done on the post-heaven diagram, each trigram representing one of the eight internal organs and body regions, with change between them based on the five element diagram overlaid on top of the eight trigram template-this was likely the product of generations of collective research. The only place it could have been developed, I feel, was in ancient temples.

What do you think is the goal of Ba Gua training?

To become a complete well rounded human being, equipped with the physical prowess, intelligence, wisdom and abilities, to deal with the world without fear, anger or prejudice, and if one is special, to contribute revolutionary advances.

Do you feel that you still have further to go in your studies?

Absolutely! From twenty-four years with him, Gong Baozai prepared me in the fundamentals, the relationship between character and movement, the expression of internal energy to outward strength, all based on development of the intelligence, and how this is not restricted to martial arts but extends to all the relationships and endeavors of one's life. Now it is time for me to take it deeper in my body. The fact that I am in my forties has brought about another concern I didn't have when I was younger, which is health and longevity, and passing the right idea to the next generations. Overall, I would say I've reach 70% of my potential; there's a long way to go.

Dr. Guen, how would you sum up the changes in martial arts that you've seen over the years?

In the thirty years I've practiced, there has been a move away from pure tradition to more synthesis of different styles. I think this evolution is good. There is a part of me that is saddened by the fact that in spite of the greatness of orthodox traditions, they in some way need to be let go of. A good example is Chinese medicine. Acupuncture needs to establish as a profession in its own right, but at the same time must defer to more effective modalities of treatment where it is not strong. This is the current complementary medical view of integrative treatment for illness.

How has your personal martial art (kung fu) changed/developed over the years?

It has changed from restless, insecure, with the need to intimidate people and force my will on them, to more ease, acceptance, following and contentment. I feel I'm finally getting a handle on how to take care of my health and life. The after effects of fighting used to stay with me constantly, getting trapped as tension in my emotions and physical body. I have since learned the correct way to train and harness great powers without as much negative side-effects.

Martial arts are nowadays often referred to as a sport. would you agree with this definition?

I share the same view as Gong Baozai that there is a marked distinction between sport martial arts and orthodox martial arts. Martial arts can be used as a sport; I was a full contact competitor in my twenties; the experience was invaluable. But the sport mentality is limited. As a life practice, I do not advocate the sport mentality. Gong Baozai taught that authentic martial arts absolutely cannot be used to compete, because the original techniques and philosophy are designed for life and death survival.

What general advice would you have for the martial artist?

To channel the warrior force inward and upward for development of the higher intelligence, in addition to outward and downward. Open the body and release repressed anger and fear, nourish the brain and open the mind. Use the powers one garners to heal one's relationships and seek deeper insight into life. The original temple standard of being a master meant far more than being a proficient technician or healer.

Who would you like to have trained with that you have not (dead or alive)?

In ba gua quan, Gong Baotian, Yin Fu and Dong Haichuan, of course. In tai chi chuan, Yang Shouzhong and his family predecessors. Any master of complete authentic systems.

What would you say to someone who is interested in starting to learn martial arts?

Look for a teacher who has definite martial art (fighting) skill, but who also fully embodies the principles of an authentic path. Quality teacher and method are required to teach you how to move the organs. If you can find the connection between the internal organs and external movement, then everything you do is in harmony with your higher wisdom; no matter what style you do, your practice will be correct.

What is it that keeps you motivated after all these years?

What motivates me these days is the feeling I get from practice, when all parts are operating together at once, this enables me to figure out ways to use the ba gua quan knowledge to heal my body and solve problems that come up in daily life. Another motivation is having the opportunity as a teacher to guide others on the path to fulfillment, knowing these strides are being taken to improve the future.

Do you think it is necessary to engage in free-fighting to achieve well ?

By all means. free fighting is essential to know martial arts. However, the losses are more important than victories. Street skills are important as well; where we don't have experience, we hold unconscious fear. At the same time, one shouldn't go out looking for trouble. I'd suggest that people allow the natural events and relationships of one's life to create one's lessons. That should be enough. This speaks of a core revelation of what Gong Baozai taught, that you cannot go out toward knowledge, but best let the opportunity for knowledge to come to you.

I feel the most important attribute for a fighter depends on their starting disposition. If you are of a kind disposition you must lose fear of hurting people. If you like to hurt people, you must acquire the capacity to hold back and feel compassion. If you are naturally crafty in personality, you must also master straight line force. If you are naturally straightforward and direct, you must learn how to be flexible and changeable.

What is-was your philosophical basis for your martial arts training?

For self-defense and self-cultivation: Chinese medicine and the philosophy of change. For community and service: knowledge that comes from study of the religions and spiritual practices of the world. Given the modern age, the traditional Chinese worldview alone is too narrow and limiting for me as a complete life path.

How do you think a practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts?

A practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts by cultivating mental and emotional awareness and self-control. The traditional way proposes such attainment can be gained through learning the correspondences between behavior, posture and the movement of the internal organs. Quite paradoxically, spiritual illumination and the capacity to render devastating force are the product of the same effort.

What do you consider to be the most important qualities of a successful martial artist?

Character. Living a life that is even, balanced, open and fluid.

Why would a person want to study Yin Fu ba gua quan today? What does it offer?

I personally feel that Yin Fu ba gua quan, even the complete the system, is not necessarily a discipline a modern person would want to learn. The world is different today; whatever we invest our time and energy in always needs to take into consideration the benefits and the costs. On the one hand it is fulfilling and romantic to experience the rigors of a real tradition under an orthodox teacher. On the other, the old ways in general have become obsolete. While original methods still uphold eternal principles, transmitting the shell of rules and techniques alone risks distorting one's energies, throwing one's judgment and perspective of life and relationships off track. The relationship between teacher and student must change above all, not to one of equality, because then a teacher merely becomes an information vendor rather than a harbinger of ancestral power and wisdom. The "feminine" principle is what I feel is missing in even the most upright traditional arts. Transmission of the live essence of Yin Fu ba gua quan in my generation already risked becoming forgotten. This has forced me the past ten years to examine in-depth the nature of community and relationships and differences in training approaches for women and men. Much of my writing and instruction on martial arts is about bringing forgotten material back out into the light.

Michael, could you begin by giving us some background on your book, "Way of the Saint", what prompted you to write such a book?

My main objective for writing Way of the Saint: The missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts , was to present the highest principles and standards of martial arts as presented by the original Yin Fu ba gua quan system. I wrote it for several reasons: as an exercise to get more personal clarity about the system, to fulfill my obligation as a lineage holder of this tradition, and for my students. It tells of my life with Gong Baozai, and the trials and tribulations of our relationship, as he endeavored to transform my beliefs from that of an ordinary martial artist to a more conscious feeling human being.

The book spells out the essential principles he taught. I tried to portray the keys underlying the methods in a way that would be understood by a diverse audience: people interested in Chinese culture, medicine, spirituality, martial arts, Asian-American studies, cross-cultural studies, and for both practitioners and non-practitioners alike.

How do you tie in your work in Acupuncture and the field of psychology?

It's been a rough road assimilating all these endeavors together. My greatest challenge has been to gather the insights from these various fields in a single presentation. Chinese medicine as applied to life practice is the subject matter of the first two chapters of the Yellow Emperor's Classic on Chinese Medicine . This is where I feel the insights from the ba gua quan tradition taught by Gong Baozai most aptly apply. The power one accrues in self-cultivation indirectly leads to effectiveness as a diagnostician and therapist. It opens the range of how one can heal; for instance, I teach my patients simple yet profound things about their posture, movement, personality, character and relationships, and their association to their illness. I counsel them on how to release deeply entrenched blockages and substitute old patterns with new ones to achieve their greatest personal potential.

I also teach that illness is delusion; that delusion is denial of fulfillment of one's higher dream of service. I know this goes beyond martial arts and even traditional Chinese medicine, but this is where I feel medicine needs to go in order to evolve to its next level of really be useful to humanity beyond symptom identification and reduction. Acupuncture and psychology today remain in my opinion "middle class" because they chase behind the symptom and have little means to help one bring an individual, much less humanity, out of the deep seated fear engulfing the planet. The only way for people to effect real change in their personal lives, I feel, is to connect with the world cause. For that the patient as well as adept must have a means to develop "actualized" repertoires that do not have fear at its base. To do this requires a deep understanding of 'change,' as compared to working from familiar conditioned response patterns to merely cope with the world. Yin Fu ba gua quan above all else, establishes the criteria for living from faith and hope, rather than resignation and fear. Imagine this spirit permeating the health professions and martial arts!!

Thank you, Doctor Guen for interviewing with us. You've certainly given us some great insights!

The pleasure has been all mine, Robert. Thanks for inviting me.

How may we reach you?

A website, www.vertical-force.com , will be up soon with seminar schedule, products, and other information. In the meantime,

Phone: 707-526-2675

email address: michael@guensystem.com
website: www.guensystem.com

Publications:

Eight Standing Meditations of Ba Gua (video/DVD)

Yin Fu Ba Gua Quan Study Manual and Curriculum

Yin Fu Ba Gua Quan: Eight Lesson Primer

Coming out in 2004:

Yin Fu Style Ba Gua Quan: Essential Guide

Ba Gua Quan: Eight Trigrams "Fist"

Ba Gua Zhang: Eight Trigrams "Palm"

Way of the Saint: Missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts

Intro : Health & Healing : : Martial Arts : Philosophy