Interview with Robert Chu Sifu by Alan Orr

It is a great honor for me to introduce my sifu, Robert Chu, in his first UK interview. They say even a single ray of light can cast away many shadows. For me, Robert Chu has been such a ray of light and I hope you find this interview equally illuminating.

Alan Orr: Allow me first to introduce Robert Chu. He has been involved in the martial arts since 1972, specializing in Wing Chun Kuen. Over the years, he has been fortunate to learn several versions of the art such as the Yip Man style from several prominent instructors, including his current teacher, Hawkins Cheung, and the Yuen Kay Shan and Gu Lao styles from his good friend and ,teacher Kwan Jong-Yeun.

Robert Chu is co-author, along with Rene Ritchie and Y.Wu of 'Complete Wing Chun: The definitive
guide to Wing Chun's history and traditions’ and author of numerous articles and columns on martial arts and Traditional Chinese medicine. He lives in California where he practices Chinese
Medicine and can be found on the web via www.chusaulei.com.

Robert Chu: Thank you, Alan.

AO: Sifu, could you begin by giving us some background on your book, ‘Complete Wing Chun’ ? What inspired you to put it together..

RC: The book ‘Complete Wing Chun’ – and I should mention we didn’t really want to call it that but.the publishers wanted to to fit it into their continuing ‘Complete’ series - was meant to embrace the historical traditions of Wing Chun (which was actually the original title of the book). The idea was to let people know that in the 150+ years of history of Wing Chun, many different variations had developed, not just that popularized by Yip Man and now spread over the world. We wanted to show that there are, in fact, many different branches and sub-branches of Wing Chun and that despite all the differences we’ re all of one martial arts family.

AO: One of the first things that drew me to you was the way you stressed structure in your writings, something which seems now to have spread quite a bit. When people talk about structure, though, are they all talking about the same thing?

RC: It has become a bit of a buzzword, hasn’t it? And words do all tend to sound the same, so people may not be quite sure what I mean by structure. When I first wrote an article about body structure, I wasn’t talking about the way a form looked per say but more its function. I have two sayings’ let application be your guide’ and ‘let function rule over form’. Lacking this, you can have the shape, but the movements would be dead.
For example, a lot of people begin Wing Chun and stay there and learn the first form and keep standing there, and standing…I think that people should not only develop their strong stances by sitting there but they need to know how to move it and make it practical as well. This is what I mean by proper structure. Its very common to have some sort of transitory structure but it is it emphasized. I put a strong emphasis on it. In my opinion, Wing Chun has five or six major areas that need development. Its not just hand techniques or individual techniques, but expression of the tools through the body structure. Body structure powers those tools. Then there is timing. Proper timing is what makes these tools come to life. Positioning can cut down on the timing. From there is also sensitivity, which tells how to feel and how to move accordingly. If you have sensitivity and a person gives you a certain energy, he is in essence telling you how he likes to be hit. His position is saying ‘this is the most favorable tool for the moment and occasion and you can use the proper timing to deliver it and have a proper body structure to power it and you will finish me.’ Lastly there’s experience. With experience you know what your options are and you know when to cut down your options you know how to limit your options. Then you’re not just all over the place. You focus on the job in hand you know this is the best option for the moment.

AO: Could you explain some of the methodology behind this? What approach do you take in teaching and training it?

RC: You know, Wing Chun is pretty much Wing Chun. The differences lie in the teaching approaches. Do people really understand the methodology of the system? What I try to do is teach my students a clear understanding of the methodology of the system and from there, let them use that to guide their own training, qand develop their own attributes. The methodology of a system is called “Faat Mun” in Chinese – For example, getting back to the ‘just standing there’ comments above, many people do Pak Sao (slapping hand) exercises and they only stand there and do a very fixed drill. In my approach, we emphasize a lot of walking and moving right from the start. Then I do a lot of isolation exercises as well.

AO: Isolation exercises?


RC: Yes, I take drills from the wooden dummy and I take drills from the forms and then I practice them singularly. In this way, people can develop better attributes, speed, power, sensitivity, so on and so forth.

AO: Okay. And this moves into Chi Sao (sticking hands) as well?

RC: Sure.

AO: I’ve noticed many people seem only to train Chi Sao in a mechanical, technical way, with not much exploration or experimentation. How do you prevent this from happening in your approach?

RC: Over the years, I’ve come up with conceptual methods to help get students passed the drill.

AO: Could you explain that a little more?

RC: Wing Chun already has a technical progression. Chi Sao, Luk Sao etc… but these are mechanical methods and they don’t really explain the strategies behind Chi Sao. What I like to do is say OK – you have lets say perhaps ten basic tools (Pak Da, Lap Da etc.) and you’re relatively good at them. How do we get you to vary them or change them so that you can really use them? You need to have different methods for that so what I did was break them down into fourteen distinct examples. The first is called Mun Fa or asking (also called Yin Fa, or enquiring method), which is to entice or lead. What I do is I give pressure to a point and then that gives rise to my method or tool. This way I check and ask what are you going to do. Once I do that and there is a response, I’m better able to adequately use that. For example, I might press an opponent and if he reacts a certain way then because of my feeling and sensitivity I can use the Tan Da concept. Lets say in another case where I’m being pressed heavily, I might need to run away from that pressure so this is called Jau Fa – the running method and I run away from your pressure and then it gives me a rise to a new tool – so that’s another way. For example, I run away from it then I come with Tan Da. See, it’s not just a technique-oriented way of doing it, it’s a conceptual guide to create the changes. Sometimes people attack very quickly and in the space of one beat you can be hit so what I do is I need to break the opponents speed and beat him to that punch. I need to intercept him so maybe he’s about to punch and hit me – I intercept him on the 3/4 beat or half beat. So this is Jeet Fa, a method of interception. Sometimes I see opportunities and I’m feeling them so I see the opponent hasn’t time to move so I might Tau or Lau, steal in or leak in, and hit him. I see and opportunity and I steal it of I passively come across and just take advantage of that situation at that moment. Another method is while I practice I like to see how would I move and just try the movement on it. So it might be from one movement to another – so that’s another one called Chum Fa, which is method of crossing or moving. Sim Fa is for when I need to know how to displace my body, to dodge or move my body., It could be a small evasion where I use my torso to evade or a large evasion where I use my step to evade. There might also be a method where I have to guide an opponent into walls or objects or different directions – this is called the Dai Fa. If You’re trying to hit me but I guide you off course, I redirect you or put you in another situation where it’s not your outcome. You meant to hit me but I control you. Sometimes you’re giving me a lot of power, so I borrow your power so this is another method – the method of borrowing. Your power comes to me, I borrow it, I simply absorb it into my structure and then I can use your power against you because my body’s like a big spring – you push me into the ground and then I come back and release it back into you. There are also methods of uprooting. By uprooting I don’t just mean body and stance - I’m trying to mentally uproot you. The reverse of that is called sinking – I have a method of collapsing you, making your structure collapse or making you stop looking for opportunities to try to hit me or take advantage. There are also ways of swallowing force or absorbing force and then ways of extending force and expelling force. My body again is like a spring, you push into me and I absorb it, when I let go I spring out and hit your – this is a natural method. There’s also a method of linking and de-linking the body. I call the Tuen fa. I extend my hand and I de-link my hand from my body. Now, of course, I don’t mean just take it off, what I’m saying is dropping and bending and folding the joints. I can break it or I can connect it at any time.

The idea behind all this is Wing Chun should have some sort of key words as a guiding light to help practitioners. This way a practitioner can say ‘all right I need to have sensitivity…’. For me, I need to have a vocabulary to explain my methods, otherwise it’s just always going to be random. These fourteen methods are not written in stone but these are fourteen good guidelines that I use.

AO: Since I’ve been using them in my own training, I’venoticed they dissolve into each other, so they’re not separate but they work together in conjunction with the whole system.

RC: That’s how it should be!

AO: I’ve heard you mention (Yi) intention. You said this improves the intention of your training?

RC: It certainly does because again, the universal formula for success is based on four factors: you have to have a goal in mind and then you have to make this goal time down and then you have to have a plan to reach this goal. In reaching this goal you have adjusted your plans accordingly.

Sometimes things don’t happen according to the right time frame or factors or anything you expected and then you make adjustments. As long as you have a goal in your Wing Chun then you can make it very successful this way. If your goal is to be a great Wing Chun fighter then you should learn it for fighting. If your goal is to be a great Wing Chun forms man then they should study what would make their form better and more appealing.

AO: Since we’re talking about forms, as a Chinese medical practitioner,you’ve explained a lot about Siu Nim Tao training and some of the pros and cons. You’ve said that if it’s done in an overly static manner, this will cause stagnation?

RC: The theory of Chinese medicine says that the Chi must flow normally – so if the Chi doesn’t flow then it’s impeded. The liver governs the chi flow through the body. We often see cases of liver Chi stagnation; when the body is very rigid and you’re using the shoulder,the GB 21 point has a tendency to be rigid. You also have the other gall bladder points in the area. People tend to be very rigid when their knees are locked and not moving. Therefore you’re causing stagnation of Chi and blood. In the theory of Chinese medicine, that is also not very helpful. The Chi must always move. If the Chi doesn’t move it get stagnated. If it gets stagnated then it can start causing the Yang rising. You see a lot of incidents in Wing Chun where people have the Yang rising. You can see signs and symptoms such as red eyes, bad temper, red face, they feel very uncomfortable or irritable, they have a tendency to shout and so on. I see a lot of Wing Chun people being very aggressive. I don’t think it’s just the normal fighting spirit, what’s happening is that their normal practice is causing them to be hyperactive in the Liver Yang or the Liver Chi.

AO: As a practitioner myself, it brings a picture to mind of the Liver and Gall Bladder channels, which are wood channels, so the difference might be vibrant Wing Chun as a young, fresh sappling and Wing Chun that’s not so vibrant and an old, dry branch?
RC: Wing Chun people can be very proud for a good reason – we are a very famous system throughout modern China. However I see a tendency for over aggressiveness in a lot of practitioners and I think that they’re not balancing out their training well enough. When we talk about vector forces we never talk about a punch as an entity by itself with the shoulder alone because that’s separate from the organism. The entire organism when it’s punching then every aspect from head to toe should be connected in that punch. The intention is that the body alignment is there, the hip placement is there, the foot gripping the ground is there for that split second. Many people will teach you that you have to grip the toes for example. If you do that then your Wing Chun is locked, relax the toes, there’s a certain point of gripping the toes – there’s never just gripping the toes all of the time. There’s a vector force you can say from kidney 1 to heel as the route and then linking up through the leg into the knee, into the hip, from the hip to the waist, from the waist to the rib cage and back to the shoulder, the shoulder connected to the elbow, the elbow connected to the ribs and then extending outwards. All these are within a line what we’re also doing is we are stressing the system. The stress causes hypertrophy of the bone because you’re extending the bones to fight against gravity. The muscles have to hold the bones in place causing hypertrophy of the bones, making the bones thicker, stronger. This is basic training. The idea is that you twist the motions so when you twist the motions, when you elongate the tendons, you cause again a stress on the bones, causing a minor force to act upon the bones, causing bones, muscular and tendon development. Internally train one breath of air; externally train the skin the muscles and the bones. Externally train these from the movement. We train the skin because its attached to the muscle – attached to the bone and the sinew.

Alan Orr

Going back to the stance – the Wing Chun stance is obviously based around developing energy for fighting so there are pros and cons of the Wing Chun stance training.

Robert Chu

The stance is not a physical stance. I think the early translators of martial arts had nothing to equate it to – perhaps they learnt it from fencing or boxing or they learnt it from different poses. No one just takes a stance and fights from a stance. A stance is always dynamic and changing. In Chinese we call it Ma Bo, Ma is horse and Bo is a step or we talk about Bo Fa, methods of stepping. We do not talk of a stance as a fixed entity – only in Chinese martial arts today has it become a fixed entity. Stance is not fixed it is never fixed. There’s an active phase to the stance or shall we say to the body structure because I tend to use an English translation but it is actually co-coordinated with the torso methods – what’s called in Chinese Sim Fa. Sim Fa and Bo Fa work together. Bo Fa is the stepping methods and so the active phase is when you are applying power the neutral phase is in-between and then there’s a passive phase where you are absorbing power. Each of these is how Wing Chun is used properly. Everything begins and originates from the footwork. Footwork transfers into the body and into the torso methods and produces more energy. We don’t lift up our feet too much – what we do is basically glide over to position and then relax sink and root. It’s never a point of just stopping and applying force from there. From there that differentiates and delineates the different methods of Wing Chun. Some schools believe one hundred percent that all the weight is in the back leg, zero percent is in the front leg, some may say ok graphically that 99 percent on the back leg and 1 percent on the front leg. Maybe those schools had to worry about leg sweeps and the like in the early days so they have a paranoia of protecting the lead leg with that. To me the functional aspect is always embodied 50-50. If you’re being active and you wanted to space someone – the weight has to go from the back leg into the front and then you displace them and then you can go back to your neutral position. If you choose to go 99/1percent distribution on the back leg. I have a tendency of doing 50/50 because I think that’s the most neutral on balance. Then if I need to go the other way from there I can easily shift all my weight to another angle. There’s a time and place for every weight distribution. Wing chun does not depend on a fixed format – so you can’t say OK I only do my form 50/50 and that’s the only way that will do – it depends on your relationship with your opponent –so that will cause the weight to be a certain way. When you do the first form you’re using your own timing and energy, however if you want to train all the time you always put more weight on one leg. You stand like a crane in Wing Chun. A crane always stands on one leg. If you stand on one leg – one leg is always doing the work so you always have a chance to train and develop. In our method some people might incorrectly say well you’re standing 50/50 oh you’re rooted – no people don’t understand what double rooted means from that point. Double rooted doesn’t mean you have weight on both legs 50/50 - it’s talking about a relationship between me and your opponent means that you can control the linkage and the relationship of having weight on your opponent from you so in other words If you have your opponents weight on you and you put your own weight on a leg then your double rooted. Then you’re stagnating again. If you receive his weight and you can control his weight you maneuver it accordingly – you are not double rooted.

Alan Orr

From a Chinese medicine point of view Wing Chun stance has pros and cons. It helps more fire but it builds up too much fire if not understood correctly.

Robert Chu

Ah yes the stagnation of Chi . Where the stance is locked and stiff. The pelvis is locked forward, the feet are turned inwards at a 45 degree angle and you sink your weight – you might be leaning back all of the shoulders are locked. In my opinion your locking up the Liver and Gall bladder channels that’s wood in the Chinese elements. Wood turns to fire when stagnated very easily. I think that’s why a lot of Wing Chun people are aggressive; this is a byproduct of improper training.

Alan Orr

Wing Chun can you say something about that because that's something that's particular to your expression at the moment

Robert Chu

Theory is something that is kind of half-baked. You have an idea that you can do it like this but you’ re not quite sure of what the outcome will be. So you have a theory you’ re theorizing about it. If you’ re talking about the actual teacher they should have the experience that ok I thought this would work but I know now that it doesn’t work so he should pass on principles to his students not theories. The same thing goes for concepts. Teachers need to teach concepts rather than techniques. Concepts are just like I am saying. Rather than him having to go through 2- 300 variations if he is given the concept then he can adapt to the circumstances it’s kind of like in herb logy when you see a person with an ailment you know that a certain group of herbs will benefit that ailment and if you see other signs and symptoms then you add additional herbs. That s a mark of a proficient herbalist.

Alan Orr

From my point of view I felt that you’ ve made me teach myself by teaching me the concept I can see the technique myself. The cuts down the idea of chasing a thousand techniques.

Robert Chu

Exactly. A lot of Wing Chun people are all-familiar with Tan Da rudimentary part of the system. It’ s a technique in itself, but you see their so many variations. How can you say there s only one variation of it, but if you give them the concept they can spring forth many different ideas that’s the idea behind Wing Chun. Wing Chun is supposed to be alive. Our art is called in praise of spring. Spring is like things are blooming and new. It has to be where the art is alive, it’ s changing and adapting to circumstances, you’ re able to use it in every circumstance and never worry about it.

Alan Orr

This is going back to the idea that forms are not just sets of techniques they’ re actually expressions that accumulate to build up.

Robert Chu

Forms are concepts in itself. They are an aide to help you memoriese many different things that you would otherwise forget. They help you with concepts of understanding of fundamental principles. E.g. Some of the principles are the center line we must keep our center line these are understanding of the gate the inside and the outside gate and understanding develop over your training, so a lot of these are considered isolation drills.

Alan Orr

Well Sifu you know me, I could ask questions all day and night and you could answer them, but I think the magazine will have had enough of us for now. Let me thank you personally for sharing your insights on Wing Chun.

Robert Sifu please complete any last message.

You can check out Robert Chu’s web site via wingchunkeun.com. Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun.

Alan Orr is Disciple of Robert Chu Sifu and the UK representative of the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system.




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In Search of Truth:
An Interview with Robert Chu

Interview done by Mark V. Wiley, Originally published in Inside Kung Fu, February 2007 and originally submitted to Martial Arts Combat Sports Magazine in 2003

Robert Chu is a name that cannot be separated from the world of wing
chun kuen. Not only is he a master teacher of this style, but one of its foremost researchers and educators. He has co-written with Rene Ritchie and Y. Wu Complete Wing Chun, which is to date the most comprehensive book on the various histories of the art, and has recently completed his opus on the physical analysis of the art, the soon-to-be-published The Essence of Wing Chun Kuen. He is a featured columnist in Martial Arts and Combat Sports, a frequent contributor on WWW.WingChunKuen.Com, and teaches his scientific version of the art to students around the world.

In this exclusive interview, Robert speaks directly to the wing chun
community to shape up their act, be more responsible with the
information they are perpetuating, and on the research that went into
his seminal books.

Mark Wiley: Robert, your background in martial arts in general and wing chun in particular is quite diverse. Would you share with us a little of your background?

Robert Chu: Sure. I have been involved in martial arts for 27 years. For the past 23 years I have been concentrating on wing chun. Prior to that, I studied hard styles like Shaolin and Hung gar. I have also studied Yang and Sun styles of Tai Ji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Lama and Bak Mei martial arts. I was also fortunate enough to study with Lui Yon Sang and inherited his teachings of the Fei Lung Fu Mun martial arts that specializes in the spear and pole.

MW: Regarding wing chun, I know that you have studied multi-lineages
of the art. Why did you feel the need to study various versions rather
than sticking to one?

Chu: I look at wing chun as one family, despite the lineages that all
clamor as to be unique. If they all share the name “wing chun,” it means that one version has more in common with another than differences. To see what my martial arts cousins learn and how they express it does much to enrich my understanding of the art as a whole. In China, when you studied a martial art, especially at advanced levels, you went to visit other relatives in your system, visited with masters of other systems, discussed and shared different points of views, showed applications, and read classics of other martial arts. This is what also inspired what I try to convey in my “Wandering Knight” column. I think this is the only way to reach higher levels.

MW: What do you see as some of the more overt differences in the
practice and application of wing chun between the various lineages?

Chu: As I said before, all lineages have their strong points. Certainly everyone says they're the most original, traditional, authentic, secret or whatever, but usually that is just hype and marketing. It makes people put on blinders and think what they have is the best. To me, "original" is what you start out with - you're constantly refining and modifying your practice as your knowledge increases. You have to get beyond all the silly hype and look at a system as a vessel of knowledge taking you from ignorance to wisdom. In a way, I look at Wing Chun people passing down the art as they interpreted it and sometimes with that direct transmission, certain points may not be emphasized as they are in another branch. For example, the Jee Shim Wing Chun system has bigger motions in a core set called Sam Bai Fut, and their pole work is exceptional and in my opinion better developed than some other branches. The Gu Lao branch of Wing Chun that was taught to me by my sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, has no forms and emphasizes formlessness, a quality that where you have form but are not bound by it. The Yuen Kay Shan system has a core of twelve basic concepts that applications are built around from. The Yip Man system is very simple, direct and practical and fits in with modern day society. The Cho Hung Choy system has a complete set of fist principles that tie it with the internal workings of the art. I could say more, but to sum it up, each branch of Wing Chun has a unique feature and way the knowledge is transmitted.

MW: Your book, Complete Wing Chun, offers the many histories of the
art as told by the varying groups that spread the art around the world. What prompted you to write such a book?

Chu: Complete Wing Chun came about when my good friend, Rene Ritchie
suggested that I work with him regarding a book on multi-lineages of the wing chun system. He got the idea from Y. Wu, a practitioner in
Singapore, who suggested he expand the material on his website into a
book on multi-lineages of the wing chun system and Rene invited me to
work with him on it. Since I was experienced in the Yip Man, Gu Lao, Pan Nam, Yuen Kay Shan, and familiar with other styles of wing chun, I guess Rene thought I could help round out the project. I’d be natural to co-author the book.

MW: With so many lineages in addition to the well-known Yip Man
school, who do you think created wing chun or has the most pure
representation of the original idea of the art?

Chu: Both before and since Complete Wing Chun’s publication, I have
given much thought to this question. There are several theories, but
nothing that can be considered fact. I think it’s obvious from the book that any serious scholar rejects the thought that Ng Mui and/or Yim Wing Chun did, as they were fictional characters, perhaps based on local heroes. I think they’re are fine fairy tales, but at the same time and these characters are probably more fictional than factual, based on the research I did. Also, while Tan Sao Ng might
have been the founder of Cantonese Opera, I think the time frame between him (1730s) and Wong Wah Bao (1850s)—about 150 years—is too great for him to have transmitted the art directly to the Opera people.

I think in all likelihood, wing chun developed along within the same way as other Cantonese/Fujian southern fist systems like Hung gar, Choy Lay Fut, Lee gar, etc., developed by people engaged in illegal activities of wanting to overthrow the Qing government. In my opinion, then, I think the only wing chun elder we can really document and verify is Wong Wah Bao. Most lineages mention him by name, and excluding contrary to those unique names unique to one particular lineage or another, his name comes up most often, almost across the whole art. If I were a gambling man, I’d say he was probably the central figure. Because of political reasons and a negative image, it was better not to promote an art with connections to a secret society (which is related to today’s underground triads), a conspiracy to overthrow governments, a failed rebellion, or even an assassin’s art.

MW: Myths and legends are rampant in the martial arts field. Why do
you suppose such stories of a woman and nun were attached to wing chun?

Chu: I believe the fairy tale story got attached to the formation of
wing chun. In Hong Kong and China during the late 1940s and early 1950s to give it a better image, as other systems did as well. This was a better approach than linking the art with the Triads or secret societies, which were associated with crime, drugs, prostitution, extortion and the like.

MW: Your articles and columns seem to focus on the teacher/student
relationship as opposed to fighting theory. Why?

Chu: When I first started wing chun, I had a teacher that taught in
secrecy, had a special high disciple fee, taught behind closed curtains, had secret oaths, secret gestures, and considered regular students as nothing, and always withheld the higher level information from the regular students. I didn’t like that feeling. When I learned anything in school, I thought martial arts should be like any other educational endeavor: the teacher should give the mind set, knowledge, and work for and want a student to be successful. When I saw that teachers would deliberately hold back their teachings, keep their students down, and not truly give what they said they were giving, and that people were getting something less than what they were expecting, I felt this wasn’t right. Since then, I’ve managed to overcome these roadblocks and I feel I owe it to those coming along the same path to share my experiences and hopefully help them avoid the same pitfall along the way. That’s why “The Wandering Knight” talks about the student and his seeking for higher knowledge—whether it be within one’s self or finding it in others.

MW: Some say there is a modified and original style of wing chun. What is your opinion?

Chu: You have to understand, some people make a living off teaching wing chun and like any commercial endeavor, they need marketing to support them, they need fancy stories and they need new students to think they’ve found “the best most authentic teacher and system” on the planet. Those of us who have been in the art for a while and are
familiar with its true breadth and scope smile at this—you can’t get
away with that type of material being passed off in Chinese, in Hong
Kong, and certainly not China, for example. Sometimes these people have strong personalities and they attract students who really want to feel they are unique or special or “the best, most authentic.” That’s really when you see arguments and problems arising. Teachers forget or start to believe their own hype and don’t properly discipline their students. You see that on all levels, of course. Personally, I think that is a marketing ploy. Some people just trying to differentiate themselves as being the most credible or closest to the source.

MW: What would really be “original” and “modified” wing chun then?

Chu: For me, I think its personal. You start out with “original” wing
chun, which is your innocent, naive, carbon copy version of wing chun.
As you get older and progress through the stages of development, I
outlined, you become wiser and can easily “modify” your wing chun
according to circumstances. Wing chun is expressed in your body and not from your mind. You do not fight from your memory, you have to fight from being in the moment.

MW: I heard a rumor regarding casting you as “King of Wing Chun.” How do you think such a name came about?

Chu: King of Wing Chun? That is a good joke! Sounds like a joke, right?

That’s what I thought when I heard it. I thought, I should be called the king of washing dirty dishes in my home! Anyway, I think some people have become erroneously concerned about this due to my involvement in exploring multiple lineages, thinking I was trying to bring them under one umbrella. This couldn’t be further from the truth. I think any reasonable person would realize that by definition, sharing information on many branches shows there can be no single “King of Wing Chun.”

Of course, there are people who are recognized heads of certain lineages or families in wing chun—I’m not referring to those. I don’t let things like that get to me, however. While they can be annoying and disappointing at times, in the end I’m content with what I have, and personally, I don’t have the time or energy care for fancy titles for nonsense like that. I’m only into teaching people with a sincere desire to learn and of good character. I am happy with my own family and group of students. Happy to teach only those people with a good character and a sincere desire to learn.

MW: So what is it about your version of wing chun that makes it
different than the many other systems?

Chu: What makes anyone’s wing chun different? People may talk about this famous version or that awesome method, but at the end of the day, all you really have is your own expression, and we’re all unique in that. If I had to pick one thing, though, for the sake of the interview, I’d have to say it’s not style, but rather my systematic approach to teaching. I try to be very systematic and well rooted in the real world. You see, to me, style is how you express your training. A lot of teachers can’t teach. That’s true in martial arts and in the world at large. Some teachers have good intentions, but just don’t manage to connect with a student; they are poor teachers. I like to make sure that I touch on as many different methods of teaching as possible so that, for example, those who are kinesthetically, auditory, or visually oriented, all find
something to relate to. If a person prefers to learn hands on, I let
make him feel it. If a student likes to see, I show him. One other
thing, of course, is that The other thing is I prefer to teach concepts, not techniques, and principles, not theories.

MW: So you’re saying that it is the method of imparting knowledge and the methods through which students absorb and train that knowledge that sets one system apart from another.

Chu: Right! I feel I have worked things out; theories have become
principles. To me a theory is an idea, a guess—some thing that might
work. Principle is a fact. You ca do it, prove it so to speak. So, in
essence, a student has to prove his martial arts training. On paper, you might think “the shortest distance between two points is a straight line,” but in reality, you have to understand the timing, positioning and mind set that really makes it so for such a thing. For me, techniques are just examples of concepts. If a teacher teaches you a technique, you still have to understand the context of a situation, otherwise it’s dead, just a single paint-by-numbers example. With a concept, you can create any techniques you need to fit the circumstances. For example, a wing chun technique, tan da, can be done in many, many ways. I teach at least 15 different ways to do this, which can be modified maybe 100 ways or more.. What’s easier to teach though, one concept or 100 techniques? What’s easier for
the student to remember? To use? In this way, rather than having a
student memorize the techniques, I have them understand the concept so
that they can make it up in a time of need. There are other things too, of course. For example, I am also different in that when I teach, from day one, I emphasize body methods and what I refer to as body structure.

MW: I have found your famous “structure tests” to be quite useful and insightful. What is the point of creating these?

Chu: I created these “tests” as a means for beginners to feel the force transfer from a person pushing on you so that you understand and
feel connection to the ground. Some call this bone structure alignment. So many students on their first day of in wing chun on day one are told to simply mimic the teacher, they don’t get to feel what should be happening to them. This goes on for many years and they find they can’t even do “test one” which is (a simple press on the sternum to see if you are rooted in the basic horse stance of wing chun). It’s a pity. I have seen practitioners with 10 - 20 plus years of practice unable to align their body to cancel out a vector force on their person. What does this say about the next generation of practitioners? This leads to a new generation of lousy practitioners. To me, body structure is the core essence of wing chun.
If you don’t have it, your art, no matter how many fancy hands, is
empty. If you have it, everything revolves around it, partner training,forms, wood dummy, weaponry, sticking hands. They are all extensions of that training. It’s what makes wing chun unique and how we generate power and issue force. I should also add, since some people seem confused by these “tests” that they are, as I said, simple things for beginners. Like everything in wing chun, there is a whole process that comes after them.

MW: Why do you think it is that few people actually teach this?

Chu: Well, in one sense, I think many people came to this country with
good intentions to share their wing chun but were not able . The problem is they may not be able to speak English and didn’t have knowledge of how motion and the other elements are explained in a western manner to properly and convey their ideas. Others, as I said earlier, might simply not have the knack to teach, or may even have preferred to teach the exact same way they were taught, regardless of circumstances.

Similarly, there can be a problems with students as well. As the system has spread, many students have perhaps been told they have the correct transmissions and have been encouraged teach too early.
They may not really understand yet what they’ve learned, and have not
adequately received tuition. Wing chun is not some art that you pose
with, the stance taught to you from day one is a means of conveying
power into your hand or leg movements. You need to know the system well, however, before you can teach it, you need the experience and
perspective the later elements give you in order to understand how the
early elements really integrate. As you may guess, I’m all in for
quality control in the art. I’m not sure how we’ll achieve it yet, but
I think we owe it to the art to make sure the In this way, we pass on
the correct teachings, regardless of personal interpretation, are
passed along to the next generation of wing chun practitioners.

MW: To backtrack for a moment, why do you emphasize body structure?

Chu: Because, to me, it’s important that the martial aspect of the arts are preserved. When I first learned wing chun, I was taught to open a stance and sit there, with a rigid stance, gripping toes on the floor, knees turned in and bent and pelvis forward. When I did the first form, I was shown to use the local muscles from my shoulder and forearm to do the motions of attack and defense. Throughout this early training, however, a little voice in the back of my head kept saying "you have to use the entire body". In athletics and physical education, you people are taught to isolate the different parts of the body and then coordinate them—why would martial arts be an exception to this? It didn’t make sense.

Luckily, after meeting other teachers and doing a lot of personal
research, I later learned I’d been taught incorrectly. I met better instructors who showed me how to use my body and connect it to my movements and I did a lot of my own research so that I could understand this and explain it to others. From this, I was better able to understand how the body is aligned and how to maximize vector forces. When I began to teach, I felt this was more important and something that should be learned right away, from the first lesson on. You see, in learning martial arts, you have many roads.

You can be limp and empty inside, but this is dull and lifeless and
weak. Or can also you can also be rigid and overfull externally hard
and empty inside. In this case, you are still just as weak. You can
also be soft on the outside and internally strong, however, and this is where I start my students from. Finally, you can have no form, but are a conduit of energy, and this is the level of high level mastery. Teaching body structure to coordinate with your movements early on makes you more powerful from the onset. I should point out, of course, that these aren’t radical ideas. These, I believe, are the core of traditional Chinese martial arts and most physical activities that require the optimal use of the whole body. They may have been forgotten or overlooked at times, but they’ve always been there. I certainly didn’t invent the laws of physics or the anatomy of human beings, after all!

MW: How long do you think it should take a beginner to learn WCK?

Chu: Personally, I think it depends on the individual. Basically, they
can learn wing chun, which has a pretty short curriculum, in two to
three years. Now, of course, mastery is different. To master the art,
one should know all the forms, individual movements, terminology,
weaponry, applications, sensitivity training, body structure, changes,
principles and concepts of the system and be able to show and prove all of that. It is a stage of constant refinement. My opinion is that
martial artists go through three stages. The first is the “fixed stage.”

They really don’t know how to apply the art and essentially, the student is fixed in his knowledge. He’s robotic, even mechanical, in his movements and thought. Over time, he reaches the second stage, that is, the “moving stage.” With this, the practitioner becomes more fluid in his movement, and has a better understanding of his mechanics, but may not be able to adapt to changes yet. They are still mechanical, but better.

The third stage is what I refer to as the “changing stage” or
“alive stage”, the martial art is “alive” with the expression of the
practitioner, who can adapt the art to all circumstances. Regardless of style or system, I think all people go through these stages of
development.

MW: Could you please elaborate on that third stage?

Chu: Yes, mastery is when you learn all aspects of the system. All of
the forms, drills, partner drills, weaponry, fist principles, internal
training and the like. They make this all alive, with personal
expression and the art is second nature to them. The art is natural, embodied in their nature. It is spontaneous in the moment with feeling and adapting to circumstance. It holds up under stress. This is the stage of the where the masters, past, present and future are at.

MW: I understand you specialize in the weaponry of WCK. Why?

Chu: For a long time, wing chun weaponry was considered a secret. Forms, concepts and applications were withheld by many masters and were often taught last. Since I was pretty much against secrecy, I wanted to promote this aspect of wing chun as best I can. I found that basically, to be good at weaponry, you have to practice with them all the time.

Weaponry also imparts many additional attributes to you, such as
strength training and issuing force through an object. It is a way to
develop wind and strength with an external apparatus. Also, over the
years I found I had a personal affinity to the weaponry. Wing chun’s
weaponry was adapted when ancient Chinese weaponry was phasing out and
modern weaponry began to be more important. I think the wing chun
ancestors saw the benefits of attributes training with the weaponry in
hopes that future generations can still enjoy the trained strength that weaponry develops. The pole teaches the use of the body with up, down, in and out motions. The knives serve to strengthen and unify the body structure and improve the gripping and striking. Also, knives will always be a common available tool for self defense.

MW: Is wing chun considered an internal or external art?

Chu: (Laughs) Oh, big debate. Really, I think these labels are pretty
silly. Wing chun developed in the south, independent of those
labels and terms like “neijia” (inner school) and “waijia” (outer school). In fact, as far as I know, Huang Bai Jia coined the term “neijia quan” to explain the difference of his wu tang style, to mark it as unique from and how it differs from other systems. Somehow, this has grown into the popular misconception that People still think the term incorrectly means tai ji, xing yi, or ba gua, liu he ba fa and other systems, none of which, of course, are not even actually related to this original Neijia Quan. Maybe the misnomer got applied in the Central Gou Shu Guan by Sun Lu Tang and others who tried to differentiate their styles from Shaolin.

To say that Shaolin is hard, and neijia is soft—well, I think people
seasoned in both would find that is also ridiculous. Personally, like
“original” and “modified,” I think the difference between neijia and
waijia is dependant upon the level of the practitioner. In high levels, wing chun practitioners should use their bodies skillfully and avoid using tension and localized muscles. In that sense, wing chun could be considered a “neijia.” (Of course, there are so many definitions of the terms neijia and waijia, it’s not worthwhile to really clarify them here.) Some say that Shaolin is waijia because it is Buddhist, a tradition that stems from outside China, but as I understand it, wing chun was not developed in Shaolin as some people say, so that really doesn’t apply either.

MW: What do you think is the goal of WCK training?

Chu: I value teaching wing chun as an art to understanding the
centerline. It is a recurrent theme in the system. One has to be
balanced spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, so I think that is the goal of wing chun training. Wing Chun started out late in the development of martial arts. In my opinion, the art took the refined essences of the different martial arts and stressed the functional, rather than the flowery. As time went on, the recurring essence was simplicity, directness and economy of movement. All systems contain wing chun in my view, when an artist practices Shaolin to a high level for example, they are expressing wing chun, that is, the simple, direct and economical manner of movement. If you have an art stress that along with transitional movement, what you have as a result is wing chun.




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Michael Guen holds a Ph.D. in psychology, is a physician of Oriental medicine and a practitioner of various natural therapies. He is a 5th generation disciple of the Yin Fu ba gua quan lineage under Grandmaster Gong Baozai, and a thirty year student of Yang family tai chi chuan. An author, he resides in Santa Rosa, California, where he practices clinical medicine, teaches life practice and martial arts.

Can you give us a little background on your Chinese Martial arts training and experience? How long have you practiced? What have you studied?

I have been studying martial arts for thirty years. In 1973 began practicing Wu style tai chi chuan in Boston Chinatown. A year and a half later I began studying Yang style tai chi with Ginsoon Chu, who is Yang Shouzhong's second disciple. In 1977 I lived in Taiwan for two years, where I sought out instruction from many teachers. I was studying xing yi quan from the wife of Chang Chunfeng and from a disciple of Chen Panling, when I met Gong Baozai. After that initial trip to Taiwan, I went back to Asia nearly every year until 2000, when Gong Baozai and his wife passed away.

For ten years after I met Gong Baozai, I continued to study other styles in Hong Kong and Mainland China, mostly Yang family connections. During that time I met and received instruction from Yang Shouzhong as well as briefly from Chen Longxiang, the lineage descendant of Yang Chengfu's disciple in Sichuan, Li Yaxian. My other brief exposure has been to Five animal Shaolin, Wing chun, Aikido, Shuai jiao, and more recently Brazilian jiujitsu.

The martial arts I have sampled and fought against has been quite wide. But the steady reference point throughout has been the two orthodox internal teachers I met-Gong Baozai of Yin Fu ba gua quan and Yang Shouzhong of Yang family tai chi chuan. Each impressed on me completely different aspects of mastery. Grandmaster Yang possessed the marvelous dong jing , understanding force, and tai chi power; Gong Baozai brought me to a complete comprehension of the inner and outer mechanism of internal arts, which included a mysterious highest attainment called hou qi ba gua "latter steps of ba gua" otherwise known as, sheng ren zhi lu , "way of the saint."

I understand you traveled throughout Asia, would you tell us about some of your experiences?

What I didn't mention was another major influence that radically affected my orientation towards martial arts; from age twenty-one to thirty-five I had frequent encounters with xiu dao de ren , representatives of several orthodox Daoist lineages in Taiwan and the Mainland, where these masters invited me to ru men and join their sects. Some even invited me to chu jia (leave home) and renounce the world. In addition to teaching me meditation, philosophy, medicine and spirituality, I learned from them a certain perspective on martial arts-that it was a natural preparation to letting go of all worldly desires to transcend the wheel of karma.

The spiritual influence bestowed by these Daoist teachers and teachings has had a huge impact on the course of my life, as for years I struggled with the decision to stay in the world or leave the world. Imagine me, a suburban Asian American kid contemplating the renunciate path, and the confusion it brought? Therefore, from early in my training, I had been introduced to an aim for martial arts that went beyond technical mastery alone. Even though I love fighting, I never since meeting these people viewed fighting as the end all accomplishment of martial arts.

What was the great Yang Sau Zhong like?

As a student of Yang Shouzhong's second disciple from the age of nineteen to thirty, I had the opportunity to visit Yang Shouzhong three times. For accuracy sake I need to qualify my relationship with the great grandmaster of tai chi chuan-it was not as a formal student. The first was upon introduction of Master Chu; the second was on a group trip with Master Chu; and a third was a private trip to visit Grandmaster Yang.

In the brief yet intense interactions I had with Yang shouzhong, he was extremely generous to me. From direct physical contact and detailed corrections and instructions, he gave me an entirely different view of tai chi than found in the mainstream. Everything was different: its temperament, the nature of the extraordinary power, and a standard for practice of the forms that I have not seen rivaled by any practitioner of tai chi.

The standard of authenticity I hold for the internal arts thus comes from having for years compared and weighed the methods, styles, character and dispositions of these two pure line masters. I saw that the original schools of tai chi chuan and ba gua quan known today were developed and preserved for generations as independent inquiries. All Gong Baozai and Yang Shouzhong ever did was one style their entire lifetime; which means that if it is actually true that they were both fourth generation lineage holders of the original traditions, each system held a reality that was complete and self-sustaining unto itself. This is a big statement. For one thing, it implies the systems in being self-sufficient, were originally resistant to blending.

Throughout my twenties I fought Gong Baozai's recommendation to develop my character and scholarship; at the same time, I was so taken by the internal power of Yang's tai chi, that for those years I invested most of my energies into training in tai chi chuan. However, the principles Gong Baozai imparted never left me.

Regarding Ba Gua, I know that you have studied different lineages of the art. Why did you feel the need to study various versions rather than sticking to one?

I actually had only brief exposures to other ba gua styles, most before I met Gong Baozai. Like many of my tai chi colleagues in the 70's, I was fascinated with ba gua and took various workshops offered by different teachers. Until I met Gong Baozai, none of the styles I studied put me in conflict with other internal styles. I could keep practicing ba gua zhang, tai chi chuan, qi gong, xing yi quan, all with no disagreement. However, the open body style Gong Baozai taught was so different from what I call the "turtle back" posture. Opening my chest, pulling in my abdomen and sticking out my buttocks seemed contradictory to what I had learned was "internal," and it at first made me feel weak. This is the reason I didn't practice his style seriously for many years; I didn't possess the emotional strength to hold my body open that way. Another reason was that because it was practiced so radically different from other internal styles, dedicating myself solely to ba gua quan would have alienated me from the greater martial arts community.

Even as I delved into other styles, it always clung in the back of my mind that there was something special about the method Gong Baozai taught; the entire feeling and flavor was different. Later I discovered that my training in other systems built up my body in a way that made it "armor plated." I resisted Gong Baozai's entire teaching approach of family style and the physical method because it threatened me. It was too open and intimate, making me feel vulnerable with my feelings; all of which I was not yet ready to face until I matured emotionally in my thirties.

Confucius said, "At thirty one stands up." Gong Baozai interpreted this as meaning that one first has a sense for living for the sake of oneself. Before one has matured sufficiently in this respect, no matter how hard he or she may try, they are unable to embrace living beyond one's own self-interests. In my late twenties I fell quite ill from incorrect practice: fighting too much, taking too many blows, and indiscriminately abusing people. There was a passive anger I wasn't in touch with that was inverting inward and destroying me. Gong Baozai was the only martial arts teacher whose system, in offering an equal balance of warriorship, scholarship and medicine, could save me from my violence.

What is unique about the training that you received under Gong Baozai? How is the application different from Tai Chi? How do you choose what system you use for application?

The tai chi chuan I learned was very authentic. As a martial art it is supreme. Gong Baozai said that his teacher Gong Baotian acknowledged the superiority of tai chi chuan. Yet he also commented that present day tai chi has lost the thread of the balancing element in medicine. When I refer to medicine here, I am speaking of a sophistication of knowledge that goes way beyond qi cultivation, acupuncture and herbs. These, Gong Baozai said, are surface manifestations of a deeper root in medicine, whereby one understands the nature of change. The sole emphasis of the tai chi training I received was on developing rooting and power. For quite a few years I practiced eight to twelve forms a day, then in the evenings practiced pushing hands, sparring, and the other two-person training. I learned that even though one might have lousy technique and form, with all the qi and strength building in tai chi it would be hard for another to hurt your body with their bare hands.

Exposure to Gong Baozai however, changed my perspective on all of this. Tai chi and ba gua turned out to be like apples and oranges. Because of differences in purpose and approach to practice, they cannot be blended. Not wanting to lose either, I tried for years to find the common link, all to no avail until just recently. I describe this experience in detail in my book Way of the Saint: Missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts.

The system Gong Baozai taught is impossible to study with the same spirit as other martial arts. Everything about it causes one to have to let go of old preconceptions of what martial arts is, especially the value of strength. This is a very extensive question you ask, but I can answer it at the root, which is how the philosophy is used. I am aware there are many versions and interpretations of tai chi, some coming from temples with extensive theoretical frameworks and ties to Chinese medicine, qi gong, and I Ching. But my criteria for authenticity are the families such as Yang, and Chen from where the Yang came. The people that popularized tai chi in the public arena were martial artists, not monks. I do not know the temple styles of tai chi. In the terms of the Yang family, I know that the main application of yin and yang is as directly applied in exercise and practical application. It is principally a martial art, only secondarily a system of therapy or medicine. With training one develops dong jing , interpreting force, fan tan jing , repelling power, someone touches you and in an instant they lose their balance or are bounded away. This is what I learned from the Yang Shouzhong style. No excessively round circles, no winding up, no whipping; the real practical thing that is based on merging body and mind. That is the marvel of the in-the-door Yang family training I caught a glimpse of. You can't get near them; the strength in the hands and body are so great that they could crush you with little effort at all.

Despite this appeal, something was wrong with my tai chi training. I feel the system either lost or never had the medicine. Maybe by the time the families got them the medicine and mysticism was lost already. If Zhang Sanfeng did create tai chi in the Song dynasty and was a monk, it might have been a more elaborate and extensive in terms of medicine and mysticism. What the families I feel mainly got were its fighting aspect and a little of the self-cultivation, which though extraordinary, did not likely include the spiritual aspect.

By comparison, a version of an original temple martial art system was, I feel, retained in the transmission received by Gong Baozai. He claims to have learned it from Gong Baotian, who got it directly from Yin Fu. The depth of this orientation can be summed up by what Gong Baozai once said to me when I asked him how ba gua can be applied to life and self-defense. He said "ba gua cannot be applied to life, ba gua IS life!" That says it right there. The goal is not to find something-that will only kill it-but to seek the principles that already exist within you. This might seem Daoist but it is not. It is just natural and common sense, and the way to allow the body's full potentials to come forth. The more you pursue physical strength, the less you truly have it internally; the more you want to beat someone the less effective you will be in other aspects of your life. You might win a bout, but the effort you put into getting those skills may leave you short-sighted and handicapped in the bigger scheme of your life. Just look at the private lives of many successful pugilists as an example of chi kui , losing out in larger respects. The lives of many students of internal martial arts I have taught, even though not as extreme, are not much different in the lack of balance and true fulfillment.

At this point, my tai chi and ba gua can be practiced together, but only because I've given myself over to the principles of ba gua. The open body posture of ba gua can encompass tai chi; but the closed turtle back posture of tai chi, for all its effectiveness in fighting, is unable on the physical, emotional and mental levels, to embrace the expansive consciousness of ba gua. I agree with Gong Baozai that tai chi must have once had the medicine-emphasis on separating out the organs with movement-maybe even to a greater depth of profundity than ba gua quan, but this knowledge may have since been lost.

What is the resultant sum of physical martial arts training?

I think you are talking about power. I used to have enormous rebound power-I would give demonstrations for my club holding five men on my shoulder and pushing them back into a wall. But it was external and eventually made me sick. Maybe it was because I had not learned the complete tai chi method from the Yang's. But I'm not sure if I want to now, because of the bondage to power; it bred a restlessness and spirit that masked by politeness and propriety was always challenging and testing. One's world becomes very small-who is more powerful, who can push who, who is superior based on this criteria alone? This is the underlying dialogue I see masters promoting to their student's today. It has to be; power is the martial artist's basic claim to self-worth in this modern era. Gong Baozai did not call that martial arts, but "pugilism." True martial arts, he claimed, embodies medicine, mysticism and character, which as a consequence curbs.the tendency toward imbalance in the strength realm. His saying "employ principle above strength, rather than strength above principle" sums it up.

There is never any guarantee that practicing a superior system will lead to great accomplishment, but the general ambition of ba gua quan is higher than most martial arts. Engaging in self-inquiry under the guidance of Gong Baozai I came to understand many things about Chinese culture and spirit, about human nature and the natural course of life. It is the development of a strong intelligence that makes the body strong and capable, of a caliber above the norm. This is what makes one superior as a fighter; not the endless conditioning of body parts and killer techniques. Superiority as a human therefore has nothing to do with fighting or training. Those who need to prove their self-worth by fighting are in many respects like adolescents.

In contrast, Gong Baozai offered an "art," a path to freedom rather than a technical craft. He hardly met others who were willing to take up this kind of bid-that is why he had so few students. Few had the faith or patience to try to understand where he was coming from. Gong Baozai's idea of formlessness was essentially to be able to walk into any culture and be so well rounded, well read, and capable and resourceful intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, that you not only feel comfortable, but have no points to defend. One must possess mature self-understanding before form can be relinquished; one needs the courage to let go of one's own culture and open oneself up to others. Aside from the supreme fighting abilities of Gong Baotian and Yin Fu, they needed to be worldly in their perspective to hold such esteemed positions in the Imperial Palace.

This expanded awareness is reflected in ba gua quan's style of fighting as well. Gong Baozai taught one to follow the opponent and use softness to overcome hardness just as tai chi; but the approach taken to develop skills is slightly different. In ba gua training there is more incremental breakdown of the joints from head to toe, and more focus on mastering the footwork. As it came from Lohan it has preserved the full array of techniques one would find in Shaolin, including pressure points, sweeps, jump kicks, throws, locks, flying takedowns, etc. Strong rooting is developed, and so is the ability to be generous and forgiving in word and action. All tolled, this expanded versatility of repertoire offers a broad range of social and physical options when dealing with an attack.

Tell us a little about the training/principles/concepts of the Gong Baozai Ba Gua system.

Some main concepts are chiefly: principle above strength (form); three essential standards: the principles of structure, medicine and technique; the six correspondences; inner and outer unification; self-propagating growth, one-effort, following the natural course. The method for developing strength is very profound, as one learns movement and strength in relation to oneself rather than first learning strength by applying it to an outside body. Integration of the mind with one's own body, character and conduct with one's teacher, tradition and other relationships in one's life, are all vital to gaining unwavering mind-based strength. Most essentially, the movements and postures need to be in accordance with physiology. The inner organs and outer body regions have close functional correspondence with each other. The invisible barrier separating movement of the limbs with the internal organs must be transgressed.

I've heard He Jinghan is the inheritor of this system? What is his relationship to you?

He Jinghan is my lineage brother, and one of the inheritors of this system. I began training with Gong Baozai several years before him. For ten years we intensively researched this ba gua quan system together. Much of the teaching that came out of Gong Baozai was stimulated by us working together. Regarding a sole inheritor, Gong Baozai never declared one person as his sole cloak and bowl descendant. He may have wished it to be that way, but by the end of his life it was obvious that our circumstance made it impossible. None of his disciples had the opportunity from a young age to go deep. He Jinghan and I came into relationship with Gong Baozai having studied other styles; there was thus a bias he had to trouble shoot in order to align us with the pure ba gua perspective. When you look at the reality of our modern situation and lifestyle, in the face of such challenging aspects of this esoteric system that are so elusive and difficult to grasp, it is ridiculous to make such a claim. We are just struggling to preserve the pieces that we learned. Gong Baozai did manage to pass onto us practically the complete framework of the root ba gua quan system; but even he did not learn the qing gong (lightness skills) - the flying art, that his teacher had. In terms of embodying the principles fully in knowledge, skill and character-that is the only thing, in my opinion, that would entitle one to claim inheritorship. None of us has fully achieved to this level.

Gong Baotian told Gong Baozai that ba gua quan can never learned to the end. I am not talking about external forms, but the grasp of the three essential standards-principles of physiology, medicine and technique-to be able to fight in perfect adherence to these principles, living the mystery of change within the eight trigrams, five elements, and yin yang, in every moment of one's relationships.

Regarding our strengths, I would say that He Jinghan, Tu Kun-yii (another disciple of Gong Baozai in New Jersey), and I have each excelled in different respects. Gong Baozai named a total of twelve disciples. To get a well-rounded grasp of Gong Baozai's teaching it would be worthwhile to get to know more than one of us.

What do you think martial artists can gain through the study of this martial art? What do you think this means for western martial artists and their students?

Martial arts can stand to learn a true state of self-reliance and self-sufficiency, to a point that one's learning becomes so full that the concern for qi cultivation is transcended. Within the ba gua quan methodology is a distillation of the most essential elements of martial arts as a complete system of life practice. The ultimate attainment is a direct experience of inner outer unity in handling all of life's affairs. Once you feel the impulse arising from inside the organs, and how it is effortlessly connected with body mechanics through the five elements and eight palms, there is no going back to externalized strength. Thus in general this discipline can help to elevate the standard of martial arts with the highest potentials human beings are capable of. That foremost includes the natural graduation to service for community, the basis of a spiritual life, as an expression of superior scholar-warriorship attainment.

The benefits to western martial artists and their students can be great. It may help give martial arts a chance to be restored to the respectable position in society that it once was in Asia. It is because of a narrowing of scope that it is presently relegated to a special interest or hobby today. In fact, martial arts represents among the highest level of integration possible by humans.

Would you go so far as to make a comparison of the effectiveness of your Ba Gua Quan and what is commonly known as Ba Gua Zhang?

We need to define "effectiveness." In fighting, I feel individual talent is a bigger factor than any system, regardless of the system one practices. For health, there are also many individual factors such as hereditary and social background that play significant roles. Regarding the difference between ba gua quan and what is commonly known as ba gua zhang, I feel ba gua quan, with the attention paid to separating out the body parts, enables one to gain more self-awareness, and ultimately to be able to change and deal with the stresses of life very effectively.

Do you think different 'schools' (styles of the same method) are important?

I think every school has something valuable to offer; assuming that each most likely embodies at least some memory of the essential system. Studying them can bring us more clarity about what the original possibly looked like.

The challenge for all practitioners from lineage holder to student, in this respect, is to transcend the form of one's practice. I do not know what Yin Fu learned from Dong Haichuan. There is no proof whether it was Dong Haichuan or Yin Fu who brought in the Lohan aspect to ba gua. Gong Baozai himself told me that ba gua quan is only a li, principle. So I don't really know what the original system was. What we do know for certain, however, is that the system Gong Baozai received is so extraordinary and all encompassing of the essence of philosophy, medicine, mysticism, martial arts from ancient Chinese civilization, that it seems impossible one person could have created it. It's simply too vast in scope-for instance, the 64 posture pao chui "cannon fist" form, and the reason it is done on the post-heaven diagram, each trigram representing one of the eight internal organs and body regions, with change between them based on the five element diagram overlaid on top of the eight trigram template-this was likely the product of generations of collective research. The only place it could have been developed, I feel, was in ancient temples.

What do you think is the goal of Ba Gua training?

To become a complete well rounded human being, equipped with the physical prowess, intelligence, wisdom and abilities, to deal with the world without fear, anger or prejudice, and if one is special, to contribute revolutionary advances.

Do you feel that you still have further to go in your studies?

Absolutely! From twenty-four years with him, Gong Baozai prepared me in the fundamentals, the relationship between character and movement, the expression of internal energy to outward strength, all based on development of the intelligence, and how this is not restricted to martial arts but extends to all the relationships and endeavors of one's life. Now it is time for me to take it deeper in my body. The fact that I am in my forties has brought about another concern I didn't have when I was younger, which is health and longevity, and passing the right idea to the next generations. Overall, I would say I've reach 70% of my potential; there's a long way to go.

Dr. Guen, how would you sum up the changes in martial arts that you've seen over the years?

In the thirty years I've practiced, there has been a move away from pure tradition to more synthesis of different styles. I think this evolution is good. There is a part of me that is saddened by the fact that in spite of the greatness of orthodox traditions, they in some way need to be let go of. A good example is Chinese medicine. Acupuncture needs to establish as a profession in its own right, but at the same time must defer to more effective modalities of treatment where it is not strong. This is the current complementary medical view of integrative treatment for illness.

How has your personal martial art (kung fu) changed/developed over the years?

It has changed from restless, insecure, with the need to intimidate people and force my will on them, to more ease, acceptance, following and contentment. I feel I'm finally getting a handle on how to take care of my health and life. The after effects of fighting used to stay with me constantly, getting trapped as tension in my emotions and physical body. I have since learned the correct way to train and harness great powers without as much negative side-effects.

Martial arts are nowadays often referred to as a sport. would you agree with this definition?

I share the same view as Gong Baozai that there is a marked distinction between sport martial arts and orthodox martial arts. Martial arts can be used as a sport; I was a full contact competitor in my twenties; the experience was invaluable. But the sport mentality is limited. As a life practice, I do not advocate the sport mentality. Gong Baozai taught that authentic martial arts absolutely cannot be used to compete, because the original techniques and philosophy are designed for life and death survival.

What general advice would you have for the martial artist?

To channel the warrior force inward and upward for development of the higher intelligence, in addition to outward and downward. Open the body and release repressed anger and fear, nourish the brain and open the mind. Use the powers one garners to heal one's relationships and seek deeper insight into life. The original temple standard of being a master meant far more than being a proficient technician or healer.

Who would you like to have trained with that you have not (dead or alive)?

In ba gua quan, Gong Baotian, Yin Fu and Dong Haichuan, of course. In tai chi chuan, Yang Shouzhong and his family predecessors. Any master of complete authentic systems.

What would you say to someone who is interested in starting to learn martial arts?

Look for a teacher who has definite martial art (fighting) skill, but who also fully embodies the principles of an authentic path. Quality teacher and method are required to teach you how to move the organs. If you can find the connection between the internal organs and external movement, then everything you do is in harmony with your higher wisdom; no matter what style you do, your practice will be correct.

What is it that keeps you motivated after all these years?

What motivates me these days is the feeling I get from practice, when all parts are operating together at once, this enables me to figure out ways to use the ba gua quan knowledge to heal my body and solve problems that come up in daily life. Another motivation is having the opportunity as a teacher to guide others on the path to fulfillment, knowing these strides are being taken to improve the future.

Do you think it is necessary to engage in free-fighting to achieve well ?

By all means. free fighting is essential to know martial arts. However, the losses are more important than victories. Street skills are important as well; where we don't have experience, we hold unconscious fear. At the same time, one shouldn't go out looking for trouble. I'd suggest that people allow the natural events and relationships of one's life to create one's lessons. That should be enough. This speaks of a core revelation of what Gong Baozai taught, that you cannot go out toward knowledge, but best let the opportunity for knowledge to come to you.

I feel the most important attribute for a fighter depends on their starting disposition. If you are of a kind disposition you must lose fear of hurting people. If you like to hurt people, you must acquire the capacity to hold back and feel compassion. If you are naturally crafty in personality, you must also master straight line force. If you are naturally straightforward and direct, you must learn how to be flexible and changeable.

What is-was your philosophical basis for your martial arts training?

For self-defense and self-cultivation: Chinese medicine and the philosophy of change. For community and service: knowledge that comes from study of the religions and spiritual practices of the world. Given the modern age, the traditional Chinese worldview alone is too narrow and limiting for me as a complete life path.

How do you think a practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts?

A practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts by cultivating mental and emotional awareness and self-control. The traditional way proposes such attainment can be gained through learning the correspondences between behavior, posture and the movement of the internal organs. Quite paradoxically, spiritual illumination and the capacity to render devastating force are the product of the same effort.

What do you consider to be the most important qualities of a successful martial artist?

Character. Living a life that is even, balanced, open and fluid.

Why would a person want to study Yin Fu ba gua quan today? What does it offer?

I personally feel that Yin Fu ba gua quan, even the complete the system, is not necessarily a discipline a modern person would want to learn. The world is different today; whatever we invest our time and energy in always needs to take into consideration the benefits and the costs. On the one hand it is fulfilling and romantic to experience the rigors of a real tradition under an orthodox teacher. On the other, the old ways in general have become obsolete. While original methods still uphold eternal principles, transmitting the shell of rules and techniques alone risks distorting one's energies, throwing one's judgment and perspective of life and relationships off track. The relationship between teacher and student must change above all, not to one of equality, because then a teacher merely becomes an information vendor rather than a harbinger of ancestral power and wisdom. The "feminine" principle is what I feel is missing in even the most upright traditional arts. Transmission of the live essence of Yin Fu ba gua quan in my generation already risked becoming forgotten. This has forced me the past ten years to examine in-depth the nature of community and relationships and differences in training approaches for women and men. Much of my writing and instruction on martial arts is about bringing forgotten material back out into the light.

Michael, could you begin by giving us some background on your book, "Way of the Saint", what prompted you to write such a book?

My main objective for writing Way of the Saint: The missing link between Chinese medicine, mysticism and martial arts , was to present the highest principles and standards of martial arts as presented by the original Yin Fu ba gua quan system. I wrote it for several reasons: as an exercise to get more personal clarity about the system, to fulfill my obligation as a lineage holder of this tradition, and for my students. It tells of my life with Gong Baozai, and the trials and tribulations of our relationship, as he endeavored to transform my beliefs from that of an ordinary martial artist to a more conscious feeling human being.

The book spells out the essential principles he taught. I tried to portray the keys underlying the methods in a way that would be understood by a diverse audience: people interested in Chinese culture, medicine, spirituality, martial arts, Asian-American studies, cross-cultural studies, and for both practitioners and non-practitioners alike.

How do you tie in your work in Acupuncture and the field of psychology?

It's been a rough road assimilating all these endeavors together. My greatest challenge has been to gather the insights from these various fields in a single presentation. Chinese medicine as applied to life practice is the subject matter of the first two chapters of the Yellow Emperor's Classic on Chinese Medicine . This is where I feel the insights from the ba gua quan tradition taught by Gong Baozai most aptly apply. The power one accrues in self-cultivation indirectly leads to effectiveness as a diagnostician and therapist. It opens the range of how one can heal; for instance, I teach my patients simple yet profound things about their posture, movement, personality, character and relationships, and their association to their illness. I counsel them on how to release deeply entrenched blockages and substitute old patterns with new ones to achieve their greatest personal potential.

I also teach that illness is delusion; that delusion is denial of fulfillment of one's higher dream of service. I know this goes beyond martial arts and even traditional Chinese medicine, but this is where I feel medicine needs to go in order to evolve to its next level of really be useful to humanity beyond symptom identification and reduction. Acupuncture and psychology today remain in my opinion "middle class" because they chase behind the symptom and have little means to help one bring an individual, much less humanity, out of the deep seated fear engulfing the planet. The only way for people to effect real change in their personal lives, I feel, is to connect with the world cause. For that the patient as well as adept must have a means to develop "actualized" repertoires that do not have fear at its base. To do this requires a deep understanding of 'change,' as compared to working from familiar conditioned response patterns to merely cope with the world. Yin Fu ba gua quan above all else, establishes the criteria for living from faith and hope, rather than resignation and fear. Imagine this spirit permeating the health professions and martial arts!!

Thank you, Doctor Guen for interviewing with us. You've certainly given us some great insights!

The pleasure has been all mine, Robert. Thanks for inviting me.

How may we reach you?

A website, www.vertical-force.com , will be up soon with seminar schedule, products, and other information. In the meantime,

Phone: 707-526-2675

email address: michael@guensystem.com
website: www.guensystem.com

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by Jose Fraguas

Q: How long have you been practicing the martial arts?

I started martial arts during my youth, about 7 years old. My grandfather was a practitioner of Shaolin martial arts and Tai Ji Quan and several times when I acted up, I was punished by having to stand in a corner in a horse stance. Little did I know that was basic training in the martial arts.

Q: How many styles have you train in?

I trained primarily in Shaolin, Hung Gar, and Wing Chun Kuen in my youth. As I matured, I became interested in Xing Yi, Tai Ji and Ba Gua, and Mi Zong Lama Quan. I was also one of the last disciples of the late master, Lui Yon Sang, the grandmaster of the Fei Lung Fu Mun (Flying Dragon/Tiger System). I was fortunate to have received the complete transmission from him personally. Despite all my crosstraining, I view my personal style as Wing Chun. I practice and teach Tai Ji Quan also, but I feel Wing Chun is closest to suit my personality.

Q: who were your primary instructors?

I studied with many teachers in New York Chinatown, and wanted to explore the Chinese martial arts as extensively as I could. I thought all systems had their good and bad points, and I thought to cross train and improve myself with the various systems. Also, as young man, I was also seeking for a system that suited me best personally, and I wanted to sample what I could. NY Chinatown had all systems - 7 star praying mantis, white crane, Lion Fist, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, Lung Ying Mor Kiu, Hung Fut, Northern Shaolin and many other systems. Some masters in Chinatown were masters of legitimate systems, some masters just made things up.

At age 14, I studied some Wing Chun basics with a friend of mine, Jeung Ma Chut, who studied the Jiu Wan system. Later another friend, Eric Kwai, who was a student of Moy Yat, and I had a Gong Sao match, and although I beat him, his close quarters fighting skill was apparent, so I wanted to learn some of his basics in exchange for some fighting techniques. Eric suggested I continue my studies with one of Moy Yat's top students, so I learned from Lee Moy Shan. Because of a falling out with Lee Moy Shan, I left to study the Gu Lao and Yuen Kay Shan systems of Wing Chun under Kwan Jong Yuen, a good friend and generous teacher. I later went to seek out Master Hawkins Cheung in Wing Chun and have been with him since 1988. He is truly a master and an honorable man and it is his methods that I primarily use.

I trained in Hung Ga under Yee Chi Wai (Frank Yee). Yee is the successor to the Tang Fong system of Hung Ga, and I studied the major forms and weaponry of Hung Ga with him. He also introduced me to Mi Zong Lama Pai master, Chan Tai Shan, whom I studied with.

I studied Yang style Tai Ji Quan and Hebei Xing Yi under KMT General and Chiang Kai Shek's personal bodyguard, Wang Shin Liu. Wang Lao Shi was a General in the Kou Min Tang army and studied military science in Japan. He was a student of Yang Cheng Fu's disciple, Zhu Gui Ting. When the Japanese invaded China, Wang led many troops to do battle with the Japanese. Wang was also a master of Xing Yi which he learned from Zhu Gui Ting, who studied with Li Cun Yi, so I am proud to learn these martial arts from a man who used the arts in the battlefield. Wang went to Taiwan when the Communists took over China, then later retired in NYC.

I also studied briefly under the late Kenny Gong, exploring his Xing Yi. Master Gong taught me the Five Elements, Za Shi Chui and 12 animal forms, and I was very interested in the internal power that was cultivated in Xing Yi.

I was one of the last disciples of Fei Long Fu Mun under the late Lui Yon Sang. Master Lui was 83 years old at that time and many of the top young masters in NY Chinatown studied with him. He was interesting because his art primarily consisted of weaponry, most notably the pole and the spear. His fist art came from one of the greatest Southern fist masters of all time - Leung Tien Chiu. Lui taught primarily San Sao and two man work when it came to empty hands. His art was simple, yet very devastatingly effective.

Since most of Lui's students were experts in other systems of martial arts, I was introduced to Yin Fu Ba Gua under my fellow training brothers, Chan Bong and Thomas Lee, who studied under Wang Han Zi. I later continued more studies of Yin Fu Ba Gua Quan under He Jing Han of Taiwan.

Q: Would you tell us some interesting stories of your early days in kung fu training?

New York Chinatown was a mecca of Chinese martial arts and always exciting to meet other practitioners. I would often go and visit my friends from other schools and we would engage in "Gong Sao" (Fighting matches) and exchange with others. Most of the time, we would want to see the forms of who we fought against - this led to comparison and trading arts. For example, I would fight a guy and if I didn't do so good, then I would study fighting methods and a set with him so I could improve my weakness. In this way, I became familiar with the strong points of many styles, and saw how each approached their training from. It was real exciting and fun. Also, there are a lot of family associations in Chinatown - Oak Tin, Jung Shan, Chinese Restaurant Worker's Association which sponsored spaces for visiting or local masters and I might have some friends who were studying or practicing there. I would often go and visit other martial artists and try to pick their brains on how to improve, or just to compare how their martial arts were practiced.

Q: Were you a 'natural' at martial arts - did the movements come easily to you?

I was no natural - in fact, I was rather skinny and uncoordinated when young. I was tall and lanky compared to the average Cantonese. I did have one advantage - I had great flexibility with my legs, and usually beat most southern fist practitioners with my legs.

In martial arts, natural athletes rarely last. The martial arts are an acquired skill; they have to be learned. Some people learn things quickly and just burn out quickly. I also think if you have a burning desire to learn, then you will excel and continue practicing. There's a saying in Chan (Zen) - "No doubt, no attainment; little doubt little attainment; Big doubt, big attainment." I'm a firm believer in that. Today's experts and masters all had to study real hard to get where they are today. No one just gets it handed to them. Some think they can buy martial arts knowledge. I think money may open up the doors, but when it comes to using it, you have to have it in your body, so hard work is essential.
Q: How has your personal martial art (kung fu) has changed/developed over the years?

I think it develops as you mature. For example, in my youth, fighting was something that was natural - you did it for survival or for the sake of ego. Martial arts were something that led to big delusions - jealousy, hatred, ignorance. I see most practitioners still stuck there today. I saw a lot of guys get involved with the secret societies and with underground activities, and saw many lives ruined. I think that ultimately in martial arts, a small Dao (Way) should lead into a big Dao (way) - you use the arts to temper yourself and as a method to cross over from greed, anger, stupidity. This way you can be more in harmony with yourself and your world.

Physically, one has less time to train when they get older, so one has to continue to practice basic "gung" (work) - that is, basic exercises to maintain strength, flexibility, and timing. Nothing leaves the basics. Advanced work is just the basics applied.
Q: With all the technical changes during the last 30 years, do you think there is still 'pure' systems such as tai chi chuan, choy lee fut, wing chun kung fu, et cetera?

Pure? I think there is no such thing as "pure" - it's an illusion. For example, everyone has their own personal style - you eventually express it when you reach the highest level where art and personality match. Martial arts are both an art and a science. In Wing Chun, the art is scientific because it gives you tools and you properly replicate them, you can have the same results. The art is flexible in that it allows for personal expression. Personal expression is the art part. You learn the tools, then apply them; you don't learn the fighting forms of your master to copy their style. For example, no one in Yip Man Wing Chun fights exactly the same as Yip Man did - it is not a style that you learn to fight with and duplicate your master. The system is based on the most effective use of human body and proper timing and positioning. Everything is dependent upon the moment and the energy that the opponent gives us. People are not entirely correct when they think that Wing Chun is only scientific and based on physics - the basics are the science, but the expression in application is the art. In Wing Chun, nobody teaches you step by step what to do in Chi Sao (Sticking Hands) or what to do when attacked spontaneously - you have to develop yourself to utilize it. We're not a paint by numbers system.

All of the founders of the above martial arts must have had some training elsewhere in order to create their system, so only people under that rigid thought of "lineage" try to be pure. Ed Parker said it best - "When pure fist meets pure flesh - that's pure." Too many Chinese people are hung up with pure lineage, authentic transmission, from the grandmaster. I see Americans buying into that also, because they were trained in that way. I think it's rigid. You study martial arts for you - not for what names you can drop. All those names and credentials don't help when you're being attacked. This is why I have a motto, "Let application be your sifu; let function rule over form." In that way, you really weed out the non functional and learn to use your core system.

Q: May we talk about different wing chun styles or methods? And if yes, would you elaborate on that?

Sure. There are many schools of Wing Chun. There's Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Gu Lao, Pao Fa Lien, Chi Sim Weng Chun, Pan Nam and others. One thing I must say is that in the USA, many come out of the woodwork with secret family systems which claim to be "original" or the most "traditional". Often these claims are just a form of puffery, based on greed or ignorance. In China, we used the marketing claim, "Old, original, or traditional", whereas here in the USA, we say "new and improved". Often these individuals claiming their Wing Chun is the first or oldest is a load of crap - people just want to gain money or fame through the "secret lineage". There are a lot of giveaways and contradictory statements when people come up with this stuff, but often, people are gullible and want to really believe in this fake stuff. I guess some people can't tell the difference between "Chop suey" and Peking duck.. I guess unless one is scholarly and actually spends time to look things up, one can fall for the tricks and advertising.

Wing Chun is probably developed most in the 1850's, although some say that it has it's roots are connected to events in Southern China to overthrow the Qing Dynasty that began 150 years earlier. In my opinion, all historians are speculators, since they weren't there. The late Dharma Master Hsuan Hua, the 45 th Dharma successor to Chan (Zen) Buddhism said, "Historians are just people having nothing to do and looking for something to do. They want to investigate history, in other words, to discover what era this person lived in and what period that person lived in. It is like having eaten one's fill, one has nothing to do, so one putters around with meaningless things.In my opinion, these kinds of people are undesirable. The more they research, the more trouble they create, saying, "This is counterfeit, that is real." What is real in the world? What is counterfeit? Nothing! If you think it is counterfeit then it is counterfeit. If you think it is real, then it is real."

I think his scolding is full of Chan flavor. If you want to believe your lineage is real and you cultivate it and develop it to a high level, then it is. Who is to say something is legitimate or not? What historians try to do is to prove their hypothesis based on facts they gather and create a paradigm for you to believe in. Pay your money and take your pick! When I looked into the history of Wing Chun with Rene Ritchie, my co-author of Complete Wing Chun, the first thing I told him was every branch will say they're the first, most original and best. You can't avoid the politics. And practically every branch of Wing Chun has said they are the oldest, most original. This is all human nature.

They all say that to bolster their egos or want fame, after all, Chinese think the most original is best. So in a sense, this is just a marketing ploy. Chinese knew and understood the power of myths and legends, knowing that the Chinese mind enjoys a mystery and likes to find things out if they are real or not. In fact, in Chinese culture, it is often a custom to exaggerate a friend's credentials when introducing him to another friend. It's a kind of puffery - the only thing is you have to find out whether it is real or not and in what context.

It's the same with Wing Chun or any other martial art. For example, the origins of the Shaolin Temple - Damo (Bodhidharma) went to Shaolin, he didn't found the temple, it was already there. Nor did he create Zen or Chinese martial arts. People (usually retired warriors and generals) brought the arts to the temple. The saying "all martial arts are from Shaolin" is an exaggeration. The secret society origins are also fables, popularized through myths and powerful images of Chinese culture. I think even the average Chinese knows the fables and take them with a grain of salt, but the average American has no idea of the culture and lore of the Chinese, so take things as fact.

And you know what? You can tell when these people are trying to say their style is special and most original exclusive of every other related style, after all, they're the ones trying hard to promote that lineage. If a person says that Wing Chun is over 300 years old, then it is true for all the branches as well, not just one branch, after all, they all are linked through one important period of time - the time of the Red Boat Opera people of the King Fa Hui.

I realize what I say might be offensive to some, but if we have our differences, then I salute you! I can only say these things after I have looked into so -called secrets revealed and researched the history of China from the Ming to the Qing Dynasty period.

Personally, I think it is despicable when people lie and talk about their made up origins as real, but if a style has merits, then I try to focus on that. I think some people just want to fill their rice bowl with food and make a living, keep their business open, attract more students, keep their wives happy and put their kids through school.

Of course, the best known is the school of Yip Man, and within it, there are many branches based on what the first generation students of Yip Man interpreted. For example, Leung Ting's association is known worldwide and reflects his teachings. William Cheung is also very famous and teaches his interpretation of what Yip Man taught him.

I was lucky and was able to study many Wing Chun systems in the Yip Man family, but I concentrated on studying more of what Hawkins Cheung taught me. Hawkins' style I feel is unique, his Wing Chun emphasizes body structure and stresses combat applications. When I went to him, I already knew the entire system and had practiced Wing Chun for over 11 years. Hawkins told me that knowing forms wasn't enough - I had to concentrate on application. I thought, who is this cocky guy? Later I found out that he could back up everything he said.

When I studied with Hawkins, I found that the real DNA of Wing Chun is body structure, and this is what permeates in the application of it. What I was lacking in my previous study of Wing Chun was how to use body power. When I learned this, it made sense, for after all, Yip Man was a small man - how could he beat bigger, huskier people like Leing Sheung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lok Yiu and Wong Shun Leung, unless he had a mastery over body structure? Some have speculated special or secret techniques, or another secret system, but this is not so. The truth is one either develops body structure or not.

I've tried this method on advanced practitioners of Wing Chun - it didn't matter the lineage. What I noticed was a small handful of people had body structure. Some "experts" came to visit me, and I used test one on them - test one is simple pressure on their chest while they stand in a basic stance. Most topple over - even people with over 10 years experience! It's a shame. People with so many years experience, and they can't even stand in their most basic stance. One person I trained privately was toppled over constantly, because he did not know how to adjust his steps and body structure. He was thrown into the bed of his hotel room more than 40 times.

I also went to HK and Taiwan visited the elders of the system, including Wong Shun Leung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lo Man Kam, Koo Sang and others. I also studied with William Cheung for a while. So my grounding is based mostly on the Yip Man system. I've also had the opportunity to study the Yuen Kay Shan system thoroughly, under my Sifu, Kwan Jong Yuen, and through my co-author, Rene Ritchie. I think the Yuen Kay Shan system is very rich in teachings and tradition. I was also fortunate Kwan Sifu also passed on the Gu Lao Wing Chun to me, a system that was brought to Gu Lao village by Leung Jan, Wing Chun's most famous fighter. The Gu Lao system, as you might expect, lays emphasis on combat application.

Through the years I met people open and willing to share their systems. For example, the outstanding exponent of Chi Sim Wing Chun, Andreas Hoffman, taught and showed me his version of Weng Chun, which is a completely different system than Wing Chun. His stances are wider and deeper, and their body and pole work are excellent. I was fortunate to learn his applications of throws and joint locks first hand.

Through a sworn brother of mine, Hendrik Santo, I have been fortunate to study completely the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system, which in my opinion, is probably the forerunner to today's version of Wing Chun. This system is unique because it emphasizes the body structure, much as I do in my Wing Chun, and that it is composed of one set that embodies the three forms in Yip Man Wing Chun. The Siu Lien Tao system is comprised of movements from Fujian White Crane boxing as well as Emei 12 Zhuang - an esoteric Buddhism health/combat/meditation system. Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao emphasizes the 36 Tian Gang hands which can be used to cure or injure. The system also has a short dummy set, pole and knives sets and features sticking hands, although from a different platform than what is seen in the Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan systems.
Q: Do you think different 'schools' (styles of the same method) are important?

Not really, as I think it is the practitioner that cultivates his martial arts is most important. In the end, everyone develops their own personal style and if they have followers, a "school" ensues.

For example, one of my early Wing Chun teachers was a very mediocre teacher, but I persevered and studied real hard and was not afraid to experiment with what suited me. Of course, I also consulted with other practitioners, seniors, and elders. Hawkins taught me something great, he said, "Yip Man would tell us not to believe him regarding application of Wing Chun, but to test out our Wing Chun for ourselves." I think this statement had a profound effect on me. Prior to studying with Hawkins, I was always concerned if I learned something correctly, but Hawkins said, it's the application that counts the most. In other schools people always care if they were passed down the art correctly, but I find even if it is transmitted "correctly", but if one cannot make it work, it's worthless. This is why I laugh at all the claims of "original" Wing Chun - if you can make it work, then it is "original". If you can't make it work, then it is BS.

Even Wing Chun has a saying passed down from our ancestors, "Sao Gerk Seung Shiu, Mo Jit Jiu" - Hand and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret unstoppable techniques. When people come out with secret lineages of Wing Chun, I question their intentions.

Q: What is your opinion of other sport competitions like Kickboxing and of other fighting events such as the UFC? Do they represent the real martial arts?

I think these events are still basically sports, because the level of contact is agreed upon and there are rules. I would call these events "martial sports", just like boxing, but they do not reflect martial arts. I think these sports produce superb athletes with excellent condition and good all round skills, but the intent to kill someone is not there. True martial arts deal with a life or death situation and it also looks to heal the body, mind and spirit. Too many are practicing to be brawlers or fighters, but a true martial artist develops the soul of a Jun Zi - Confucious' idea of a nobleman - not necessarily in prestige or rank, but rather in character.

Q: Do you think that kung fu in the West has 'caught up' with the East as far as skill level? (If not, please elaborate on what is necessary to reach that level)

Yes. We've probably even surpassed them. The best people always come over here as this is the land of opportunity. I also think that people in Asia struggle to make a living and have less freetime to cultivate and develop themselves. I used to think the skill in HK or China must be superior to here, but after I visited in 1987 and later saw people who trained on the mainland, I was not impressed with the level of skill. Basically, if you're good here, you're also good there.

Q: Martial art are nowadays often referred to as a sport. would you agree with this definition?

The way most people practice is a sport, a recreation. I think martial arts is not a sport, but rather an art form. It is in a unique category. Martial arts is still the best name, rather than being classified as a sport.

Q: Do you feel that you still have further to go in your studies?

I think one can always improve. The most important thing is to maintain my level and improve daily. One can get better in timing and positioning and with regards to experience, and in this way, intuition can take over. But it must be grounded in logic, and mastery of your arts.

Q: Do you think it helps kung fu physically to train with weapons?

Definitely. The weapons skills are a complement to the empty hand skills. They teach you how to move with weight and how to dynamically apply your power and momentum through an apparatus. Few people train today with the intent to fight wityh a weapon. Most Wing Chun people use the pole as a form of weight training, and the knives as an exercise with weights; I think this is wrong in a way, as it does not develop the thought of application with the weapon - how to really cut, or disarm an opponent, and how to finish him with your weapon. In essence, the martial intent behind the weapons is lost. Weapons skills here in the USA have degraded into a show; basically everyone wants to dazzle people - but it's empty. In Southern China, one had to be proficient with a pole - to really protect oneself.

Q: Do you think the practitioner's personal training should be different to his 'teaching' schedule as instructor?

Yes. But I do think teaching is also a form of training. When you have learned your art inside out and spent enough time, you begin to move within the context of the art - there fore, everything you do is training. You stop just using arm power when you use a wrench or hammer - your body, your intent - everything is behind your movement. I change my son's diaper, I have to use a Wu Sao (Wing Chun guard hand) to protect myself from his squirting me. I use my steps to walk through crowds, I time my entry into a revolving door. All of these are daily activities that train us.

Q: do you have any general advice you would care to pass on the martial artist?

Yes, don't fall for Chinese marketing BS of "original" this or that! But seriously, everyday is training and find ways to train in everything you do. Try to study with as many people in your field as possible and concentrate on that. Then, get perspectives from outside your area of expertise. I would also say the core of real skill, the DNA of Wing Chun, is body structure. A person wanting to really master the art ought to get some real instruction in that.

Q: What do you consider to be the major changes in the arts since you began your training?

More information is available today, and slowly, all the secrecy is going away. Andreas Hoffman said something good to me, "In the future, there will be no secrets, all that people have to do is train hard and they will have it all". I think that is very true. More and more, teachers today are willing to share their fine points with you through books and videos. Of course, the majority of the stuff out there is mediocre.

Q: Who would you like to have trained with that you have not (dead or alive)?

Yip Man, because he was such a character. I could also ask him whether or not he really taught some of today's people, especially the knives forms I have seen from some individuals. I'd also like to have studied with Yuen Kay Shan because he had a great mind and he was always trying to improve. I've often thought of Leung Jan, because he was an expert in Chinese medicine, as well as a fighter and teacher. I regret not having enough time to visit with Si Bak, Wong Shun Leung, who's recent passing has left a hole in the Wing Chun family. I would also like to travel back in time and meet with the founders of Wing Chun, so I could really discern who was the real founder of Wing Chun.

Q: What would you say to someone who is interested in starting to learn martial arts?

Find something that you like and stick with it. Also, don't be afraid to try something else new if you don't like it. Try to get as much advice from elders and seniors. Always think of how to improve and you eventually will attain a high level of skill. You have to leave techniques and theory behind and really dig deep to reveal the principles and concepts behind your systems. That is real training.

Q: What is it that keeps you motivated after all these years?

I believe that the Wing Chun I practice is a very complete system. It has stimulated my mind to working out the variations, changes and combinations for many, many years. It stimulated my sensitivity to touch and pressure, with timing and directions so that I can develop my tactile sense. The guiding principles always kept me motivated, as this was advice from our ancestors. The spiritual, moral aspects of the art made me want to study Chan (Zen) deeper. The health aspects led me to study Chinese medicine and acupuncture and the body better. Johnny Wong, a fellow Yip Man Wing Chun practitioner once said to me that Yip Man told him, "The great secret in Wing Chun is that it develops your mind and makes you smarter." I think that comment is very telling. If you can apply that mind set to anything else you study, you can be very successful.

Q: Do you think it is necessary to engage in free-fighting to achieve well

Fighting skills in the street? (Please elaborate on what you think are the most important attributes of a fighter)

I used to teach my students that it was speed, strength, accuracy, timing and cruelty to get the job done, and learn how to apply things under stress. I think free fighting is just a means to develop proficiency under stress, but it is not everything. Today, I think that students need to master timing positioning, concepts and principles. That they need the method, as well as the training behind it. Teachers shouldn't teach you theory, but rather they should teach you principles that work. Instructors shouldn't just teach techniques, but the concepts needed to create techniques.

Q: What is your personal training schedule nowadays?

I do a little something everyday. I generally practice the Wing Chun basics - stance work, form, stepping, and basic combinations. For me, Wing Chun is very natural. All movement I do embodies Wing Chun. For example, if I have to change a flat tire, I use body structure, not my shoulders. This is the way it ought to be. I also train a lot with the long pole, as I feel it is the best way to train for power in Wing Chun.

Q: What is your opinion about mixing styles (karate with kung fu, kick boxing with jiu jitsu) Does the practice of one nullify the effectiveness of the other or on the contrary, it can be beneficial for the student?

I am a big advocate of cross training, but I believe you have to have a strong root and basis in one system you identify with. I firmly believe that you win with your basics and what you trained in the most. Not try to be a jack-of-all-trades, simply because you've studied a bit in all of them. For example, in Wing Chun, we finish a guy with our intercepting strikes. They try to strike us, and we intercept their attack with our own attack. Once we land, the opponent's reaction time is off, and we can further strike him to further slow his reaction time. This allows us time to win with multiple blows. If we can't win with that basic requirement, then our training in basics is crap.

Q: What is-was your philosophical basis for your martial arts training?

I believe very much in Taoism and the harmony of Yin and Yang. The philosophy of Yin and Yang extend into the Si Xiang, and later the Ba Gua (8 trigrams), within this, all of the balance of body, mind and spirit are embodied. The core of this philosophy is balance. This is what Wing Chun stresses - neutralizing and balancing, and adjusting to fit in with your opponent. That is the highest skill.

I also think very highly of Chan/Zen. I find myself reading the Sutra of the Sixth Patriarch (Hui Neng) quite a bit, as I find that the essence of Zen is there, as well as the martial arts. One of the passages in the Sutra that struck me was when Hui Neng was confronted by Hui Ming, he taught Hui Ming the essence of the Dharma in one sentence, "Not thinking of good or evil, where is your original face?" Hui Ming became enlightened at these words, and asked, "What other secrets did our master give to you?" Hui Neng said, "If you look into your heart, you know there are no secrets." I think these words can alleviate the frustration one encounters when trying to master a martial art. I also think that Chan is the heart of martial arts - as this is the root of the Wing Chun mind.

Q: Do you have a particularly memorable martial art experience which has remained with you as an inspiration for your training?

I have been so fortunate to see many unique things and study with some real masters.

When Yee Sifu practiced the Hung Ga system, you could really see the expression of the five animals come out. When he did the Tiger form, he looked like a tiger. When he did the crane form, it really looked a crane. Yee was fast and explosive and extremely talented. In my opinion, he was the best Hung Ga man I have ever seen.

Lui Yon Sang at 83 asked me to attack him with a pole, but no sooner than I attacked him with a Biu Gwun (Darting staff), he disarmed me and struck me five times before the 8 foot staff hit the ground. He was amazing!

Kwan Jong Yuen always encouraged me to learn medicine, as he felt that martial arts knowledge was never complete unless you knew Chinese medicine. He felt you had to learn the body, the weak and strong points, the range of motion, and how to cure. Kwan Sifu taught me Dim Mak, and how to really injure a person striking their vital points, but he was also balanced, as he taught me how to treat someone if you injure them. This influenced me to study acupuncture and herbology, and I am a Licensed Acupuncturist with my own clinic today. In fact, most of my teachers were expert at acupuncture or herbs, including Yee Chi Wai, Chan Tai Shan, Lui Yon Sang, and Kenny Gong.

One time, Hawkins Cheung and I were discussing fighting techniques and I threw a punch at him. With one crashing slap, he used Pak Da on me and left an incredible expanding welt on my forearm. I was literally stunned at the power of this small man!

Wang Shin Liu was very accomplished in internal cultivation and stressed the internal feeling and movement of Qi in the practice of martial arts. But he was more than a warrior, he was always soft spoken and a kind gentleman. I was always impressed by his humbleness.

All in all, I have been fortunate to meet so many talented individuals.

Q: After all these years of training and experience, could you explain the meaning of the practice of kung fu?

Kung fu means to cultivate. Every day cultivate a little and improve a little. Soon all will be clear.

Q: How do you think a practitioner can increase his-her understanding of the spiritual aspect of the arts?

I think a person has to get away from all the violence and worry about kicking butt and really have to find the inner wisdom. Avoid three things - greed, anger and stupidity. Don't ever think you're a master or a Buddha. You have to always be a student of life. One thing I don't get is why people want to be teachers - lawyers and doctors have to be practitioners, so should martial artists. What's so great about being a teacher? It's hard work!

Q: Could I ask you what you consider to be the most important qualities of a successful martial artist?

Perseverance and an open mind. A martial artist can't be too smart, or else he won't persevere. If a martial artist is close-minded, he will never have greatness in his expression of the art.

Q: What advice would you give to students on the question of supplementary training?

I think all training is good, but you have to have a goal in mind. For example, if you train with weights, it may enhance your strength, but it doesn't really enhance your knowledge of body mechanics and application of strength in martial arts. I also think supplementary training is to overcome boredom in martial arts training, so I think if a student can cultivate something, then it's good.

One of my students in Long Island, Michael Manganiello, owner of the Ling Nam Siu Lam Academy in Long Island once asked me of the peripheral equipment in Wing Chun like the sand bag, wall bag, iron palm, bag, and spring arm. I told him, basically, this is for dumb students - when a Sifu doesn't like someone or really doesn't want to teach him one on one, he directs a student to a piece of equipment to get him out of his hair! Of course, I'm joking, but there is a truth to what I am saying.

Q: Why is it, in your opinion, that a lot of students start falling away after two-three years of training?

I think because students are of a fickle nature. In this country, things come easy. We all study broadly and not deeply. So it is with studying martial arts. But I also think it is the fault if the instructor for not being a partner with the student and helping a student achieve his goals.

I think the secrecy of the Chinese martial arts is also a detriment and causes much student drop off. When sifu's have a scheme of withholding secrets or levels of training until a certain ceremony is held or a certain sum of money is ascertained, I think this is also a big turn off. Most Chinese know that Chinese hold secrets, and would prefer to study foreign martial arts like Karate, Judo and Tae Kwon Do in Asia. I think this is a laugh for people who hold too many secrets.

I think also, it is a fault of commercial schools offering belts, certificates, testing, phony titles - they're all geared to make a teacher money and inflate the ego. I think tasteless commercialism ruins the martial arts. People look at that and can see right through it. Of course, some people love that external accomplishment, but real martial arts training is better than that commercialism and money making scheming. Wouldn't something that preserves your health and offers you peace of mind be better than all of that commercialism? Of course, a student can always choose whom they want to study with.

Q: Have been times when you felt fear in your training?

I don't think fear is something you have while training - most training never escalates to a point where one is in danger. As long as an instructor teaches a student confidence, I think it will permeate in their demeanor. Fear is something good when you are in a dangerous situation - it heightens the senses and makes the body ready for fight or flight, so I think it is a good thing to be introduced to during training.

Q: What are your thoughts on the future of the martial arts?

I hope martial artists can study the martial arts to avoid delusion, stupidity, greed, envy, anger and hatred. It's a good medium to develop friendship and understand more about life. I'd like to see secrecy abolished and the ego and puffery of stylistic superiority be rid of. I think martial artists need to see others and try to understand people from their context, and avoid the negative politics, which breeds negative thoughts, which lead to destructive actions.

I also believe martial Arts instructors should turn to developing people's minds and body more. There is a great healing system to be tapped within the martial arts. Too often, instructors are concerned with the mundane technical aspects or arguing politics or making bogus claims. We are a great vehicle to helping people fulfill their destiny by nourishing spirit, mind and body.

About Robert Chu, L. Ac., QME, M.S.O.M., Ph.D.

Chinese-Ayurvedic Herbalist - Licensed Acupuncturist

Robert Chu (Chu Sau Lei) began practicing the martial and Chinese healing arts since childhood. Robert is a Licensed Acupuncturist and Herbalist, specializing in the Master Tung and Optimal Acupuncture methods of painless Acupuncture where he effectively treats pain, industrial medicine, sports injuries, and neuromusculoskeletal disorders. He also treats a wide variety of internal diseases including hypertension, hyperlipidemia, diabetes, psoriasis, thyroid disorders, gynecological disorders and side-effects from cancer treatments. He is appointed by the Industrial Medical Council as a Qualified Medical Evaluator (QME).

Robert was formerly affiliated with the St. Vincent Medical Center, Center for Health and Healing, as the first fulltime Acupuncturist on staff and treated cancer patients with Acupuncture, Herbal Therapy Qigong and Tai Chi. Robert is a former faculty member of Samra University of Oriental Medicine in Los Angeles, where he taught acupuncture. He has also taught Tai Chi and Qigong at Loyola Law School. He volunteers weekly at Pasadena's Wellness Community, where he does monthly lectures on Acupuncture and Herbal Therapy for Cancer Patients and a weekly lifestyle/nutrition and Qi Gong class for cancer patients.

Robert also lectures nationally and internationally on Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine to provide continuing education to MD's and Acupuncturists. He is the Association Chairperson for the International Association of Optimal Acupuncture and Clinical Chinese Medicine. He also serves as President of the ITARA - International Tung's Acupuncture Research Association, which he founded in 2005, to preserve, standardize, educate, and research new applications of the Tung family system of Acupuncture with integrity, open sharing, and a goal to help end suffering in fellow beings. He has been decorated as an honorary member of the Finnish Traditional Chinese Medicine Society of Acupuncture and Herbs and a therapist member of the National Register of Acupuncture Therapists in Finland. Robert is also listed as a Master Practitioner of Oriental Bodywork Therapy and Master Practitioner of Tui-Na Manipulations, awarded by the International Association of Tui-Na Therapies in London, England. He has lectured at Emperor's College of TCM, CSOMA, and other functions as a dynamic and entertaining speaker.

In the martial arts world, he specializes in combat application and health aspects with a focus on the Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen system as taught by Hawkins Cheung and the Yuen Kay-San and Gulao Wing Chun Kuen systems as taught by Kwan Jong-Yuen. He is the co-author of Complete Wing Chun, (Charles E. Tuttle Co., Inc, 1998) and has written many articles for Inside Kung Fu, Martial Arts Legends, Inside Martial Arts, Martial Arts Combat Sports and other publications.

In 2004, Robert was awarded a Ph.D. in Buddhist Ayurveda from the non-profit college Ayurveda Healing Arts Institute in Berkeley, California.

Robert can be reached at: 626 345-0441 chusauli@hotmail.com
Oasis Vitality Center 2502 E. Washington Blvd Pasadena, CA 91104


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